Soldier of Faith Marking

[garyh]

Many of the multi-class feats let you do a classes trick for a turn (fighter marking, hunter's quarry, sneak attack). The way I'm reading the paladin multi-class feat, though, is that you can use divine challenge once an encounter. Then, reading divine challenge, it's pretty clear that as long as you keep engaging that monster (and no one else marks it), the monster stays marked.

Anyone else read it differently? I'm thinking this is a handy option to have for my warlord (even though he's tactical, he's still got a 14 Cha due to being a tiefling, and monsters "know" they're marked). I think it'd really help for me to be able to pin down one big monster as long as necessary while the fighter holds a lot of other monsters, and the strikers and controllers do their thing.

I'll be happy if I'm reading this correctly. Just seems to me to be a bit odd given the other feats let you do the trick for one turn. Soldier of Faith isn't mentioned on the errata like Warrior of the Wild, though.

 

[Dalzig]

Well, there's one theory going around that the normal Divine Challenge only deals damage the first time. I'm actually starting to go along with it, as it's more in line with Combat Challenge.

While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn't include you as a target. Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn. The damage increases to 6 + your Charisma modifier at 11th level, and to 9 + your Charisma modifier at 21st level.

So you challenge a creature. If it makes an attack that doesn't include you before the start of your next turn, it takes damage. This only occurs once. It never says that it resets or that you get the damage every turn.

This isn't how a lot of people originally thought it worked, but it makes the most sense given how it's written.

 

[garyh]

Hmmm. Good points, Dalzig. I'd read that as "does damage only once per turn" so that if the monster attacks multiple times via special abilities or OA or what have you, it doesn't take damage for all of those attacks.

However, Divine Challenge takes a minor action to activate. Are you saying, then, that a Paladin would have to spend his minor action on DC every round? That doesn't seem right to me. The fighter challenge lapses each turn, but an attack renews it, so that's not a problem. Making the paladin renew his mark each round seems excessive.

Also, honestly, I don't even care how much damage the monster takes from my warlord-paladin's DC. The point is to keep the monster occupied, and if the mark lasts even if the damage doesn't ping again, then it's still helping keep the monster to me (or at the least giving the monster a -2 to atack anyone else, which is still good).

 

[Dalzig]

Well, the mark would still be there as long as the Paladin kept engaging it (as outlined in Divine Challenge). It's just that the damage only occurs once per use of Divine Challenge. If you wanted the damage, you'd have to renew with a minor action.

The 'old way' of doing Divine Challenge doesn't seem right to me. It's the only ability that continually deals damage without (1) requiring an action or (2) ending on a Saving Throw.

 

[garyh]

The 'old way' of doing Divine Challenge doesn't seem right to me. It's the only ability that continually deals damage without (1) requiring an action or (2) ending on a Saving Throw.

It requires you to be right up next to the monster where they can smack you, and encourages them to smack you (monsters know they're marked), and does no damage to them if they do try to smack you. Seems okay to me.

 

[Dalzig]

The problem comes in that it can be used at range. A paladin marks a creature that is engaged with the fighter. He then backs off and shoots with a bow. Due to this, he has engaged the target.

If the fighter is the least effective at locking the creature down, it can't reach the paladin. Since it can't reach the paladin, its only option (other than twiddling its digits) is to attack the fighter. Automatic damage. Anything that immobilizes the creature is just as effective.

This differs from other attacks in an extreme (IMO) way. Ongoing damage requires a Saving Throw to stop the damage. AOEs such as Flaming Sphere are just as effective with immobilize, but require a minor action to sustain. The same thing is true with other powers that have the potential to deal damage every turn.

I might be playing "Amatuer Game Designer" but Divine Challenge just seems out of line compared to the rest of the powers I look at.

 

[ogre]

Dalzig,
Good point about the comparison. At first I was in the other camp, allowing the damage each round. But in light of ranged attacks by the paly and no other way to remove the damage, like all other powers that don't stop by the end of next turn or with a save, it seems your logic is correct. The way it's written it can be interpreted either way, by I think you may be right.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Dalzig goes bad, news at 11!

Just kidding. I just didn't think I'd see you change your mind about DC.

My take on it is the original. The reason I believe that it works every round, and is intended to do so, is because of the word also.

While the target is marked it is under two effects. One is the typical -2 to hit with attacks that don't include the paladin. The other is the divine damage. The reason this chance to damage reoccurs each round ( timed off the paladin's turns) is because of the phrasing " While the target is marked ". Your next turn occurs multiple times if the target remains marked the entire time. If the power read " When the target is marked" I would agree that it is a one shot deal because there is only one turn that would occur "next" after the turn that you marked it with Divine Challenge.

As a sidenote, Customer Service has ruled it that way too, but we know there is potential for them to change rulings depending on which CSR answers so take that as you will.

 

[Staffan]

The problem comes in that it can be used at range. A paladin marks a creature that is engaged with the fighter. He then backs off and shoots with a bow. Due to this, he has engaged the target.

If the fighter is the least effective at locking the creature down, it can't reach the paladin. Since it can't reach the paladin, its only option (other than twiddling its digits) is to attack the fighter. Automatic damage.

How does the fighter "lock down" the creature without marking it, thereby overwriting the paladin's mark?

 

[Dalzig]

How does the fighter "lock down" the creature without marking it, thereby overwriting the paladin's mark?

Combat Superiority and some cleverness. Combat Challenge is actually quite ineffective at stopping creatures whereas it excels at stopping people from shifting and hitting allies.