Solving the minion problem: Waves!

[-Avalon-]

Okay, I don't play FR, so I only the basic concept of what swordmages do. So can you explain how a swordmage can hit and kill 12-16 minions in 2 rounds with At-Wills? A regular Wizard couldn't even do that with Scorching Burst unless he had a godly hit stat and they were packed like sardines.

It is not JUST the killing... he is just MORE adept at it, and the party suffers nothing for it. He swings at a real mob, adn auto-hits ANY adjacent enemy, which kills any of the minions around the real mob (hence the staggering I mentioned), it is MUCH more powerful than cleave, so yes, Swordmage is overpowered, plus if the SM has an ally adj to the mob, it doesn't hurt the ally lol...

but between a ranger (twin-strike), a rogue, a Fighter, SwordMage, Cleric, Warlord, they manage to kill around 8-12 minions per round... so I have to send in waves if I wanna even use minions, unless I put the minions in the back and have nothing but blockades of real mobs up front...

 

[Doctor Proctor]

It is not JUST the killing... he is just MORE adept at it, and the party suffers nothing for it. He swings at a real mob, adn auto-hits ANY adjacent enemy, which kills any of the minions around the real mob (hence the staggering I mentioned), it is MUCH more powerful than cleave, so yes, Swordmage is overpowered, plus if the SM has an ally adj to the mob, it doesn't hurt the ally lol...

but between a ranger (twin-strike), a rogue, a Fighter, SwordMage, Cleric, Warlord, they manage to kill around 8-12 minions per round... so I have to send in waves if I wanna even use minions, unless I put the minions in the back and have nothing but blockades of real mobs up front...

Okay, originally you were giving the impression that it was the Swordmage himself that was wiping out that many minions. HOwever, look at your party here. A twin-strike Ranger, a Rogue, a Fighter, a SwordMage and then two leaders? If the Cleric a melee cleric, or is he the only one that's actually a "back row" character?

OF COURSE your minions are going to get mopped up when trying together in melee. You're pitting them up against a heavily melee focused party, so having minions try to stand toe to toe with them won't work. Instead, why not try clogging them up with some melee Brutes as big punching bags to waste attacks on and then load up on a ton of archer minions. See how fast that Rogue lasts under focused fire.

Edit: After seeing eamon's post, it's even more clear that it's the way you're running it that's causing a problem. If their attack is only killing some enemies that are adjacent to the primary target then he's correct, that should be 1 or 2 MAX. If two minions were flanking the Swordmage, for example, it wouldn't even work since they're not adjacent to each other. So why would you even have 2 or 3 enemies standing shoulder to shoulder in a line up against the Swordmage? Especially minions? It makes zero sense tactically, and it's a recipe for minion slaughter, which is what you're seeing.

 

[TheNovaLord]

to me this is an odd thread cos minions is one of the best things about 4th edition

the 3 folks who GM in our groups love em

players love em

i dont see any issues

 

[James McMurray]

to me this is an odd thread cos minions is one of the best things about 4th edition

the 3 folks who GM in our groups love em

players love em

i dont see any issues

what level are you playing at, and what's your party makeup. Those two factors determine how useful minions are from the GM side of the table. I love the idea of minions too, having first used them in Exalted and Scion (where they're called extras). However, in those games XP isn't awarded on a per-kill basis, so it doesn't matter if it takes 150 extras to equal one real NPC.

 

[eamon]

It is not JUST the killing... he is just MORE adept at it, and the party suffers nothing for it. He swings at a real mob, adn auto-hits ANY adjacent enemy, which kills any of the minions around the real mob (hence the staggering I mentioned), it is MUCH more powerful than cleave, so yes, Swordmage is overpowered, plus if the SM has an ally adj to the mob, it doesn't hurt the ally lol...

but between a ranger (twin-strike), a rogue, a Fighter, SwordMage, Cleric, Warlord, they manage to kill around 8-12 minions per round... so I have to send in waves if I wanna even use minions, unless I put the minions in the back and have nothing but blockades of real mobs up front...

Why are the minions all adjacent? I mean, that's just unwise. A swordmage can't kill even a single minion guaranteed, and with greenflame blade he'll kill only on a hit, and then only those that are adjacent to the primary target. That really shouldn't be more than 1 usually, and rarely more than 2. And when it is... let him have his hit, it's a rare situation, and he's still gained less XP than a normal monster.

Minions are also quite threatening because of their high number of attacks, and work well in combination with opponents that synergize with large numbers. There's quite a few of those.

So yes, if you bunch up minions and don't make use of their strengths, they're weak... hardly surprising.

Similarly, ranged monsters are overvalued because if they're surrounded, they're weak. Slow melee monsters are overvalued because you can just run and occasionally shoot an arrow in them.

In general, minions are fine as is, certainly for heroic and paragon tier.

But by all means, don't play your minions as sitting ducks! Of course they'll be a joke like that.

 

[Nebulous]

At some point in the fight, when it is opportune, you send in reinforcements, equal in number to the wasted minions. The new minions will require new actions to kill, thus preserving the assumed economy with respect to minions and encounter design.

Essentially i've been doing this. With a warlock, wizard and fighter in a party, who know how to best use their powers, minions drop like flies. So i just keep 'em coming so long as it feels "right" and is not overwhelming. I think we had around 30 or 40 zombies in one fight, i can't recall exactly, i just kept reusing the minis.

 

[fafhrd]

Like killing minions? Dwarven bloodmagi can clean the board as a minor action. Played one in a one shot. Tons o' fun.

 

[TheNovaLord]

what level are you playing at, and what's your party makeup. Those two factors determine how useful minions are from the GM side of the table. I love the idea of minions too, having first used them in Exalted and Scion (where they're called extras). However, in those games XP isn't awarded on a per-kill basis, so it doesn't matter if it takes 150 extras to equal one real NPC.

currently playing at 5th level or so

i know their are not new, have butchered millions of them in various Savage Worlds games. they have nothing to do with xp either...

 

[James McMurray]

In the heroic tier, minions typically are worth around 1/4 of a standard monster, because resources are lower and automatic damage (outside of a Warlock with the right rod) is almost nonexistent.

 

[-Avalon-]

Ok, we need to work on something here, because either I am going to take offense at being called an idiot basically (lol) or because people aren't reading the entire posts I am making...

I said the sword mage has at least 2 At-Wills that can do these things... not just greenflame =) Since I do not know the names (I only know the effects), one of them is strike a guy and all adjacent take damage, the other one is a close burst 1, so is meant to just be all around him...

If I put them hugging each other, yes, that is moronic in most cases and then he takes em out no problem... if I just have them wait until the main guy charges in and use them as help to give him flanking and all else, then he whirls and kills them...

Now, I have used the minions as pure ranged attacks, they lasted longer, but they did a total of 25 pts of damage the entire fight (which is nice!) but the real mobs were taken down like punks, and the party spent 3 healing surges that entire fight...

Since 4th Edition is new, and minions are a brand new concept, I am trying to find that "magic blend" where minions are just right and real mobs are just right... but according to one podcast with a designer (my friend has it on his pc, don't remember the name of the designer) heroic tier is pretty much supposed to be candy-land and allow players to learn how to play their characters, not truly be in danger of death at any point...

Well, I come from old-school where it is important in first 5 levels to hand the characters a hard blow so they understand that death is possible (not actually kill anyone, but show em they CAN die) so that they don't feel like immortals for the entire game and all...

If there is no challenge, where is the fun? No risk, no gain....