Some questions from actual play

[david_annable]

Spatula, of course there are 0[W] powers in there, they simply adhere to shorthand convention and don't include values which result in 0.

You just made that up. Nowhere in the book does it talk about how they are going to use a shorthand convention for something. Don't make things up.

Notice it says HIT, you then have two targets, you can choose either target to apply the flaming weapon daily, since you HIT.

Yeah. It does say hit. And right after that is a colon. A colon is an amazing piece of punctuation. In this usage, it indicates a syntactical-deductive. This means that what comes after the colon is describing what comes before. It's defining HIT in this instance.

What it says is, if you hit, you can do these things, one of which is deal your STR damage to an adjacent enemy. It doesn't use the word target (not that it'd matter much if it did). You have still only hit the first opponent because, indeed, there is no process for "hitting" the adjacent enemy. You just deal the damage.

There is no other way to interpret the rules as written. Of course, you are allowed (and sometimes encouraged) to do what works at your table. But you are clearly not following the rules as written. You've interpreted something that is not expressed in the text and therefore, you are playing by your own rules.

Have fun.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

There are tons of powers that do (stat modifier) damage on a miss. It's obviously part of the mechanics. It's a token amount of damage so that people don't feel like they whiffed so hard, or to provide an additional bonus.

The idea that (stat modifier) damage should be read as 0[W] + stat + other modifiers is purely invented. 0[W] doesn't appear anywhere in the books, and I doubt that the designers just went "Oh, yeah, we'll use that as a convenient shorthand and just not mention it anywhere".

Or to put it another way, warlocks have powers with things like "Creatures adjacent to the target take damage equal to your Intelligence modifier". Are we supposed to read that as "damage equal to 0 + Int + mods"? Is it different because the imaginary attack doesn't use an imaginary weapon, so there's no zero dice to roll? How about the powers that let you shift equal to (stat) modifier? If I have a feat that lets me move faster, why not apply that to the modifier?

But seriously, if the ability says they take damage equal to your stat modifier... that's what it means. It's pretty straightforward. It's used enough in the books that they would have written it a different way if it didn't mean what it said.

All the bits about a magical weapon, or whatever, that's appealing to in-fiction "physics" ... this game system doesn't care about that. The rules do what they do, it's up to the people at the table to describe that in the game fiction in a way that makes sense. Trying to reverse-engineer how the rules "ought to work" is futile ... the rules are pretty straightforward. They do what they do.

 

[GorTeX]

Spatula, of course there are 0[W] powers in there, they simply adhere to shorthand convention and don't include values which result in 0.

you are adding rules that aren't there at all. No where is it mentioned that some power does 0[W]. If there is, please provide a page number.

As far as cleave,
...
Notice it says HIT, you then have two targets, you can choose either target to apply the flaming weapon daily, since you HIT.

Notice a few lines above the 'HIT' line:
TARGET: One Creature

One, not 2. So when you hit that one creature then an enemy adjacent to you takes damage equal to your Strength modifier.

The 2nd enemy is 1) not your target and 2) not hit.

 

[Makaze]

Notice it says HIT, you then have two targets, you can choose either target to apply the flaming weapon daily, since you HIT.

Yes, you hit the target (singular) and then do Str mod damage to an adjacent enemy. No where in that does the adjacent enemy become a primary target of the power or get "hit".

In summary, I play at your table, and you rule Str only to Cleave, no biggie, you play at my table and I rule Str + mods to Cleave, no biggie.

No biggie other than you're making a fairly drastic balance change. Cleave and Reaping become much much more powerful in relation to other fighter at wills, some fighter encounters (exacting strike), and other classes. If you're cool with that then cool I guess.

 

[david_annable]

If you are using CLEAVE with a Flaming Weapon and had activated your flame power (free, at-will), the description for that power says:

All damage dealt by this weapon is fire damage.

Since the weapon is used to hit, then any damage dealt is fire damage. Despite the fact that you're only doing STR amount of damage, it would still be Fire Damage.

The Daily power in the Flaming Weapon entry indicates that you can activate it when you hit with the weapon. It then deals and extra 1d6 fire damage and the target takes an ongoing 5 fire damage.

This only applies to the target you scored a hit against. The STR damage does not constitute a hit (you didn't roll to hit, you didn't beat any of his defense scores, it's not a hit - it's just STR damage, like the rules say.)

 

[Vayden]

The rules are perfectly clear. As multiple people have explained, cleave does str mod and ONLY str mod as damage. I suspect the confusion is coming from people thinking of it as 3E cleave (I get a 2nd hit against the next guy!). 4E cleave is a very different animal, that is tremendously useful all the way from 1-30 - you know why? Minions. Minion-killing goodness - whether you're fight kobold minions at level 1 or legion devil minions at level 28, the same rule is in effect. Two of them are next to you, you cleave and hit, they both drop. It rocks.

Reaping strike? That's more of a "aw, you missed. don't feel bad, you did a tiny bit of damage anyway!" - much less awesome.

 

[Colawley]

The way I read into it is a lot like gaining Hit Points per level. The designers decided that instead of having you roll anything it became a flat amount for simplicity. So when it says Str mod damage it means just that. No modifiers or anything. Besides, it's not like you are actually hitting the secondary target, it's more like collateral damage.

 

[Harr]

Heheheh... Sorry but I'm having a fit of the giggles now and I have to comment.

"Come on DM, my dagger has the instant-dragon-killing-strike-no-save, the designers just wrote it in the shorthand of not writing anything at all! Come on, man you know I'm right!" hehehheh

Besides... the entry for Cleave DOES specify the you don't add any modifiers to the flat damage. It distinctly says, "You don't add any other modifiers to this damage." It's... just... written in the shorthand of not writing anything at all Oh man I'm out of breath now. whew.

For what it's worth, I can see that adding the weapon feat modifiers to the flat damage from Cleave IS the most logical thing to do, and I want to do it (and I probably will do it in my games) but the rules are pretty clear that you don't.

 

[Spatula]

Spatula, of course there are 0[W] powers in there,

No, there are not.

As far as cleave,

Notice it says HIT, you then have two targets, you can choose either target to apply the flaming weapon daily, since you HIT.

You only "hit" the first target. The second target just takes damage. Using the game-term "hit" as opposed to its plain english meaning.

This actually caused the minion rules to be changed, because previously they didn't work with effects like Cleave, which obviously was not intended behavior. At the time of the DDXP, "Any hit that causes damage" killed a minion, so at least one DM running games there ruled that the extra damage from Cleave didn't count, as it was not a hit. And from a strict reading of the rules, that DM was right. (minions now have 1 hp and are not damaged by misses)

Also using your "strict" roll interpations, from the PHB on Critical Hits:

So you don't make a damage roll do you? Yet you still add all modifiers into the damage calculation.

*shrug* The roll happens, it's just assumed that all the dice come up with their max value.

In summary, I play at your table,

Unlikely if you're arguing for twisted interpretations of the rules to benefit yourself.

 

[Zurai]

*shrug* The roll happens, it's just assumed that all the dice come up with their max value.

No. The PHB is very specific that you do not roll for Critical Hits. By a strict interpretation of the rules, that means enhancement bonuses on weapons, feat bonuses, racial bonuses, etc do not apply to Critical Hits.