Some rules questions (healing surges and combat)

[JVisgaitis]

So we got through our first game of KotS last night and I just have some lingering questions (had a great time btw, I'll write a blog entry on it soon).

If a character used a second wind I can still use inspiring word to heal them, correct? The way I figure it is that second wind is a one time use for each character, but that doesn't prevent them from receiving additional healing or spending more healing surges in an encounter.

If a character hasn't used their second wind and they go down, instead of using the healing check to stabilize can I use it to enact their second wind? Also, if a character is down, can I use inspiring word to bring them back into the battle?

And just a couple quick ones:

Flat footed is a thing of the past, right? There is no bonus to attack someone beforehand at the beginning of a battle (unless you are the rogue with first strike).

There are no penalties for shooting into melee combat. If my companions are all engaged, I can still shoot my crossbow at an opponent my comrades are adjacent to and I receive no penalty, right?

I asked this in the other thread about burning hands and I just want to make sure. If someone attacks with an area attack that provokes. If they attack with a close attack that doesn't provoke, right?

If a target is marked with divine challenge, does it take the damage prior to making the attack roll? We had a situation where a character was hurt badly and the kobold that was marked wanted to take out our bloodied ally. The radiant 5 damage was enough to drop him. Should he still get his attack roll or no?

EDIT: For clarity.

 

[vagabundo]

- If you are surprised you grant Combat advantage, but there is no equivalent of Flat-Footed that I have seen.

My Sis in last nights kots game:"So flat-footed is gone huh?(I nod). I never really knew what what meant anyway..."mefacepalm.gif

- Second wind allows you to access a healing surge during an encounter. You can use as many healing surges as you like outside of an encounter, during a rest. However you have to be conscious to take the standard action to use Second Wind. When you are unconscious (<=0hp), no actions. Other powers can give you access to your healing surges similar to second wind; like healing word.

EDIT: You could use a healing check (DC15) to allow some to help an unconscious character to use second wind, if they have not already used it. In the DMs rules in KOTS is says the check allows second wind without an action.

- No penalties for shooting into combat, your allies do not provide cover, however enemies do provide cover, so some brutes surrounding the evil Warmage will give him cover (-5).

- RE: Paladins Challenge: It doesn't specifically say, but I'd guess the damage happens as a reaction or as part of the ongoing damages, so it would not happen before the attack is resolved. It doesn't say interrupt anywhere in the description.

Normal disclaimers about the above information apply. I am not a WOTC employeee

 

[Mort_Q]

Area and Ranged powers provoke.

Melee and Close powers (and presumably Personal) do not provoke.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=227442

 

[Contents May Vary]

If a character used a second wind I can still use inspiring word to heal them, correct? The way I figure it is that second wind is a one time use for each character, but that doesn't prevent them from receiving additional healing or spending more healing surges in an encounter.

Exactly. Second Wind is one way a character uses a Healing surge on themselves, and it is limited to one use per turn. But there are other ways to use a Healing Surge on someone.

If a character hasn't used their second wind and they go down, instead of using the healing check to stabilize can I use it to enact their second wind? Also, if a character is down, can I use inspiring word to bring them back into the battle?

Nope. A character may only use Second Wind on themselves, and they must be conscious to do so.
But a someone can use a power (such as Healing Word or Inspiring Word) to spend one of the hurt character's Healing Surges to heal them. THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH SECOND WIND.

Flat footed is a thing of the past, right? There is no bonus to attack someone beforehand at the beginning of a battle (unless you are the rogue with first strike).

Flat footed is mostly replaced with Suprise. If someone is suprised, they grant Combat Advantage (+2 to attack) to their enemies.

There are no penalties for shooting into melee combat. If my companions are all engaged, I can still shot my crossbow at an adjacent opponent and I receive no penalty, right?

Yep.

I asked this in the other thread about burning hands and I just want to make sure. If someone attacks with an area attack that provokes. If they attack with a close attack that doesn't provoke, right?

Correct. No type of melee or close attack provokes.

If a target is marked with divine challenge, does it take the damage prior to making the attack roll? We had a situation where a character was hurt badly and the kobold that was marked wanted to take out our bloodied opponent. The radiant 5 damage was enough to drop him. Should he still get his attack roll or no?

Good question.

I don't know - I'd rule that the damage occurs as soon as they attack. But I bow to other's superior knowledge on this matter.

 

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You could use a healing check (DC15) to allow some to help an unconscious character to use second wind, if they have not already used it. In the DMs rules in KOTS is says the check allows second wind without an action.

I'm still not sure that an unconscious or dying character is allowed to use a Second Wind in this way. It doesn't make it clear in the KOTS rules. For the moment I'm going to rule that someone must be conscious to be able to use a Second Wind, regardless of whether they are using it themselves or it is being provoked by a healing check.

But I'm perfectly prepared to be corrected on this.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Nope. A character may only use Second Wind on themselves, and they must be conscious to do so.
But a someone can use a power (such as Healing Word or Inspiring Word) to spend one of the hurt character's Healing Surges to heal them. THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH SECOND WIND.

Look at the description of Healing from the Adventure Book:

Use Second Wind: Make a DC 10 Heal check to allow an adjacent character to use his second wind without the character having to take an action to do so. The character doesn't gain the defense bonuses normally granted by second wind.

I can see what you are saying (and that is the same thing we thought), but if it doesn't require an action, why not?

Flat footed is mostly replaced with Suprise. If someone is suprised, they grant Combat Advantage (+2 to attack) to their enemies.

Where does it say that? I thought I read that and I was looking all over and I couldn't find it. By that logic that only ever happens if someone is surprised then? So in the second encounter it is possible for the PCs to grant Combat Advantage while in the first encounter that wouldn't happen?

 

[vagabundo]

I'm still not sure that an unconscious or dying character is allowed to use a Second Wind in this way. It doesn't make it clear in the KOTS rules. For the moment I'm going to rule that someone must be conscious to be -able to use a Second Wind, regardless of whether they are using it themselves or it is being provoked by a healing check.

But I'm perfectly prepared to be corrected on this.

Going by the letter of the rules in KotS it is okay.

-The healing check allows second wind without taking an action.

-The only thing stopping a character using second wind is that unconscious people can take no actions.

I dont see why you would disallow it, a character has tried to use his healing knowlege to patch someone up. It is only usable once per encounter on that player and I cannot see any potential abuse.

 

[Contents May Vary]

Look at the description of Healing from the Adventure Book:

Use Second Wind: Make a DC 10 Heal check to allow an adjacent character to use his second wind without the character having to take an action to do so. The character doesn't gain the defense bonuses normally granted by second wind.

I can see what you are saying (and that is the same thing we thought), but if it doesn't require an action, why not?

Sorry, I made a mistake there - you can make another character use their Second Wind via the heal check. I'm waiting for an official ruling as to whether you can do so while they are unconscious. However, I am now going to ALLOW players to do so, based on feedback on this thread.

Where does it say that? I thought I read that and I was looking all over and I couldn't find it. By that logic that only ever happens if someone is surprised then? So in the second encounter it is possible for the PCs to grant Combat Advantage while in the first encounter that wouldn't happen?

On page 13 of the Adventure Book, under "Surprise" it says "You grant combat advantage". Is that what you meant?

 

[Ander00]

Just two small clarifications:

The surprised state ends when the surprise round does (unlike 3.x, where you were flat-footed until you had a chance to act).

Normal cover is only a -2 penalty.


cheers

 

[Contents May Vary]

@vagabundo: Ok, sounds logical. I'll change my ruling.