Some rules questions...

[ryryguy]

Sorry to change the subject:

Can someone guide me to the thread where we decided to ban the Weapon Expertise feat, or at least give me the general reasoning for why we decided to do so?

It was in the general PHB2 proposal thread. Some here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-4th-edition/256974-proposal-ph2-sorcerer-6.html

(Wow, I had missed the final outcome and that the expertises were banned... will have to change the character I'm making. On the other hand, since general backgrounds are now allowed, I won't have to take Warrior of the Wild to get Dungeoneering... )

PS -

do spell casters get a distinct advantage when rolling a "to hit" when they are rolling against reflex, will or fortitude? I've seen some of the high damage a warlock and socercer can do once they hit. Very high indeed.

The conventional reasoning is that it's the weapon proficiency bonus that makes up for this. The implement users are rolling against lower targets than AC, but the weapon users get +2 or +3 from the weapon.

You may not find that explanation satisfying, and I honestly don't know how equally that actually works out in practice. But that's the reasoning AFAIK.

Oh, and another factor is that it's harder for non-melee'rs to get the +2 from flanking. Though that may leave ranged weapon users out in the cold...

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

The conventional reasoning is that it's the weapon proficiency bonus that makes up for this. The implement users are rolling against lower targets than AC, but the weapon users get +2 or +3 from the weapon.

You may not find that explanation satisfying, and I honestly don't know how equally that actually works out in practice. But that's the reasoning AFAIK.

It actually works out very well in practice. Secondary defenses are about about 2 to 3 points less than AC on average. So even when a caster plays to the opponent's weakness and targets their lowest defense, it still evens out. Usually.

Also, I suspect melee weapon users are favored on the feat and item fronts.

Oh, and Mr. I-can-do-3d10+10-damage-with-an-encounter-power-at-level-one, I think your damage will compare quite well to casters'.

 

[dimsdale]

thanks for the reasoning everyone

Oh, and Mr. I-can-do-3d10+10-damage-with-an-encounter-power-at-level-one, I think your damage will compare quite well to casters'.

If it hits... . If not, pin cushion time.


I have to admit, 3d10+10 is nice.

 

[elecgraystone]

(Of course, in this specific case a DM allowing somebody with a carving knife turn a stick into a staff would not be a huge deal; the 5 gp savings would not break the economy.)

if it's a staff then it can be sold for 1gp. Since it's something 'any shmoe with a knife couldn't do', then the PC can quickly double his starting money by making 100 of them before he starts off on the adventure.

So right there is the reason people can't make their own items at a discount.

 

[ryryguy]

if it's a staff then it can be sold for 1gp. Since it's something 'any shmoe with a knife couldn't do', then the PC can quickly double his starting money by making 100 of them before he starts off on the adventure.

So right there is the reason people can't make their own items at a discount.

Well, obviously that would break the game economy, so a DM obviously would not allow it. The DM could say such handmade staffs would have a resale value of zero.

A player making one staff, for story reasons (maybe shipwrecked on a deserted isle or something), would not be a problem. That's more the kind of thing I was thinking. Or if the DM felt like letting the PC make one staff for himself for free just because, that would not break the game. If the player responded by claiming "resale value!" and starting a factory, the player is being kind of a jerk.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

About Expertise, the end decision was that we'd rather just ban the Expertise feats than have to deal with what happens to them at level 5 when everyone gets the free +1 to attack. You're essentially getting a free Expertise feat then, so you just have to be patient. Also, a +1 to hit won't make that much difference - how much more often than Raiyek does Kruk hit? His attacks have always been +1 higher than Raiyek's.

If it hits... . If not, pin cushion time.

I have to admit, 3d10+10 is nice.

Yeah, well, "If it hits" is a problem everyone faces. Even if you're not a striker, a lot of your intended role often rides on whether or not powers hit. And I dare say that the barbarian will do at least as much damage as a warlock, though I'm not so sure about sorcerers - that probably depends on how many targets they can catch in a blast. And 3d10+10 is not "nice", it's a ridiculous amount of damage for a 1st level encounter power! I don't think I've seen higher for a 1st level character.

Also, the "if it doesn't hit I'm a pin cushion" problem with your barbarian is pretty much exactly the same as that faced by a melee ranger or rogue - if they don't hit, they're in a pretty dangerous spot as well. In other words, it's a common symptom of being a melee striker If you want to hit more often, play an avenger

 

[elecgraystone]

The DM could say such handmade staffs would have a resale value of zero.

Or the DM could always make it easy from the start and have the staff an improvised weapon which already has no resale value...

A player making one staff, for story reasons (maybe shipwrecked on a deserted isle or something), would not be a problem.

If the DM wants to give out 5gp's worth of treasure for each staff for a story reason, that's fine. It should still come out of the total money though unless it goes away/breaks after the adventure.

Or if the DM felt like letting the PC make one staff for himself for free just because, that would not break the game. If the player responded by claiming "resale value!" and starting a factory, the player is being kind of a jerk.

IMO the jerk is the guy trying to get a free 5gp weapon when I have to pay for mine out of my own money.

Same for the DM giving away free stuff to one person and not to everyone. If he lets people have free stuff don't be surprised when someone turns around and sells it. [or starts a staff factory]

 

[KenHood]

New questions...

• Is there a feat in any of the books or magazines that lets a rogue do sneak attack damage with his bare hands?
• Oddjob's Hat -- Oddjob is the Bond villain with the bladed hat. I'm thinking that could just be a shuriken 'hand-waved' as a hat, rather than needing its own special stats.

 

[elecgraystone]

Well, there is only one way I know to get sneak attacks with unarmed attacks. Buy a belt of the brawler [level 3 item from AV;unarmed attacks = clubs]. Be an Ruthless Ruffian or take the street thug feat[both from martial].

As far as the hat? Sure! It could LOOK like a cream pie as long as the stats are the same. ​

 

[garyh]

As far as the hat? Sure! It could LOOK like a cream pie as long as the stats are the same.

Perhaps Tosk could be in a 10x10 room with his pie-shuriken...