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Some thoughts on D&D warfare
- Thread starter Yair
- Start date
Yair said:
I took some "warfare in the old-days" books with me on vacation last week. IMO DnD people would adapt to whatever the prevailing conditions are on the battlefield (a historical example - look at the way that ancient generals counted elephant troops). Armies of War1 would learn (over time) how to counter their vulnerabilities, making best use of the available technology. Eg. the 3rd time that they all got wiped out by an invisible wizard flying around with a wand of fireballs, generals would see the writing on the wall and develop counter-measures. Having your own wizards is ok, but it would be nice (as I said in an earlier thread) to have some relatively low-tech ways of countering this stuff.
For example, a strategy of digging pits and using ropes attached to grappling hooks fire from ballista and tied to boulders might be the standard "anti-golem" technique. Armies would travel with a few ballista on rollers for such a contingency if it were common in the region. If it were not, the counter-measure would soon be learned (as it took a few encounters with elephant troops to develop counter-measures)
My point for gamers is that DnD really needs some thought put into the "mass combat" culture if it's going to treat the subject well. The DM should have some guidelines as to how to field an army besides "100 guys grab spears and form up into a square".
I started working on my own list/analysis of this situation since I posted an earlier "castles in DnD" thread on this subject. I wish WOTC would have considered this in their heroes of battle supplement (not mass-combat rules, per se, but at least the characteristics/tools of an army in standard 3E would have been appropriate to the theme of the book as I understand it)
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
TerraDave said:
100 on each side.
Some factors ....
1) My wife was away and my basement floor is freaking huge.
2) We all also play Warhammer and we were kicking around the idea of coming up with a Warhammer/d20 hybrid and got about 25% of the way through before remembering that Games Workshop is very persnickity about their intellectual property. That's why we wussed out and only went with 100 troops each. We had some specials that were leveled. I think we took an equal number of class levels that the human side concentrated to represent heroes and the bad guys spread out to emlate the tougher orcs.
3) a ... um ... certain ammount of beverage produced by the Skky Vodka people may or may not have been involved.
4) we rolled initiative once.
5) one of the two "human" guys fell asleep (c.f. point #3)
6) since we all did play Warhammer, we had all the support stuff you need to move units around. Rulers, those grey trays, etc.
Anyway, I had fun. But in hindsight we had a lot of minis and counters (my buddy plays orc horde in Warhammer, I have Firey Dragon counters) and we were really in the mood to do it, as opposed to having it sprung on us mid-game. And, well, let's not discount point #3.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
Ah ha. 100 isn't to bad, I have probably had that many counters on the floor, or this big table I used to use.
In an old campaign where the PCs new a smallish war was coming--but they didn't know how we would play it--I dropped the mass battle rules I had come up (over much time and with much effort) onto them after some strong ales had been imbied. "Ya know, these would really be better if you used the players names in the examples".
That set the tone, but they did avoid drinking (much) for the actual battles.
In an old campaign where the PCs new a smallish war was coming--but they didn't know how we would play it--I dropped the mass battle rules I had come up (over much time and with much effort) onto them after some strong ales had been imbied. "Ya know, these would really be better if you used the players names in the examples".
That set the tone, but they did avoid drinking (much) for the actual battles.
sword-dancer
Explorer
No what was unusual, was that they took no noble prisoners for ransom.gizmo33 said:
For some reasons, mybe it hat something to do with the ropes the austrians had on their campaign for hanging swiss, they don`t give boble enemies quarter.
One serious issue with running mass D&D combat on an individual-soldier level is that D&D characters have a lot of resources to track. At the very least, they have hit points.
Traditional wargames instead treat a unit as OK or off the board -- maybe with one intermediate state for dispersed or demoralized. The Savage Worlds RPG was specifically designed for large, quick combats. If a character's hit, and his toughness is overcome, he's out of combat (dead or disabled); otherwise he's battered and bruised, but can keep fighting. Similarly, Blue Rose's True20 system uses a Damage Save (like Mutants & Masterminds) instead of hit points. Not having to track hit points helps tremendously when you have a lot of combatants.
Traditional wargames instead treat a unit as OK or off the board -- maybe with one intermediate state for dispersed or demoralized. The Savage Worlds RPG was specifically designed for large, quick combats. If a character's hit, and his toughness is overcome, he's out of combat (dead or disabled); otherwise he's battered and bruised, but can keep fighting. Similarly, Blue Rose's True20 system uses a Damage Save (like Mutants & Masterminds) instead of hit points. Not having to track hit points helps tremendously when you have a lot of combatants.
Celebrim
Legend
I call into question just how available 'dreadnauts' might actually be, and whether or not War1 actually constitute the majority of the armies of the 'major powers' capable of fielding 'dreadnauts'.
At just about anything below the level of an iron golem, fantasy armies can face high DR opponents. And considering the requirements for fashioning an Iron Golem, and that a beserk Iron Golem is as much a threat to its own army (and probably more) as it is to the enemy, just how common are these going to be anyway?
My assumption is that average professional armies are made of up 2nd-4th level fighters.
The first assumption is that warriors represent members of societies that have an emphasis on combat, but in which people cannot engage in martial affairs as an exclusive profession. Fighters are the full time professionals. The local gaurd or the rural tribe member might be warriors, but the world's equivalent of the Roman Legions, Spartan Hoplite, etc. are Fighters.
The second assumption is that while combat experience is the fastest way to learn the trade, training represents a slower and less dangerous way to gain experience. If training can provide 'only' 1 experience point per day to a low level fighter, then in a little over three years - even without combat - our 24 year old military professional achieves 2nd level. By the time that he retires in his early thirties, said mercenary achieves 3rd level. Elite units - and those that have experience and survived combat - can reasonably be expected to achieve 4th level. Grizzled lifetime soldiers - generally officers - might obtain an additional level or two, but eventually old age will catch up with thier strength and constitutions.
Nonetheless, large groups (in the hundreds) of 3rd - 4th level fighters even built with 15-20 PB, properly led, equipped, and supported, are a serious threat to most potential 'juggernauts'. The reason is that countermeasures for most potential juggernaut's are likely far cheaper than acquiring and maintaining those juggernauts. Assuming it can be built, an Iron Golem costs 80,000 g.p., but 1000 Adamantium arrows cost 60,000 g.p. Swarms would be very hard to control and maintain. One thousand flasks of Alchemist fire (to say nothing of a wand of fireballs) probably cost an army less than fielding swarm units, and are generally more versital. A classic 'Knight', say 4th level fighter with warhorse, full plate, lance and shield is an expensive weapon, but it is pretty darn effective at alot of things. Spirited charges easily do 3d8+9 damage on a hit, which will overcome most DR's. If I'm getting charged by 100 4th level fighters with Spirited Charge and Ride By attack, I'm probably going to take that pretty seriously.
Anything less than a full fledged Dreadnought is going to find that Brutes (orges, hill giants, war beasts, 4th level fighters with heavy lances and spirited charge) are a serious threat to them. Trents are engines of destruction, but they can be overwhelmed by a fantasy army in the Ridley Scott mold. Brutes in turn have problems against massed troops, because their AC's typically aren't high enough to provide security.
Likewise, any fantasy army that expects to meet Wizards in battle is going to have 'special forces' detailed to handle that problem, likely to include wizards of its own.
Funny you should mention that. My campaign assumes that sometime in the past, there was the magical equivalent of nuclear exchanges and the Gods now take a really dim view of high level spellcasters engaging in warfare. In fact, there are still large swaths of the world were wizards are burned at the stake whenever they are found out.
Actually, I think Faerun has something along those lines as well, though in practice the gods of Faerun don't seem to keep a very tight control on things because there are 30th level spellcasters blowing up cities every third Sunday in the FR apparantly.
At just about anything below the level of an iron golem, fantasy armies can face high DR opponents. And considering the requirements for fashioning an Iron Golem, and that a beserk Iron Golem is as much a threat to its own army (and probably more) as it is to the enemy, just how common are these going to be anyway?
My assumption is that average professional armies are made of up 2nd-4th level fighters.
The first assumption is that warriors represent members of societies that have an emphasis on combat, but in which people cannot engage in martial affairs as an exclusive profession. Fighters are the full time professionals. The local gaurd or the rural tribe member might be warriors, but the world's equivalent of the Roman Legions, Spartan Hoplite, etc. are Fighters.
The second assumption is that while combat experience is the fastest way to learn the trade, training represents a slower and less dangerous way to gain experience. If training can provide 'only' 1 experience point per day to a low level fighter, then in a little over three years - even without combat - our 24 year old military professional achieves 2nd level. By the time that he retires in his early thirties, said mercenary achieves 3rd level. Elite units - and those that have experience and survived combat - can reasonably be expected to achieve 4th level. Grizzled lifetime soldiers - generally officers - might obtain an additional level or two, but eventually old age will catch up with thier strength and constitutions.
Nonetheless, large groups (in the hundreds) of 3rd - 4th level fighters even built with 15-20 PB, properly led, equipped, and supported, are a serious threat to most potential 'juggernauts'. The reason is that countermeasures for most potential juggernaut's are likely far cheaper than acquiring and maintaining those juggernauts. Assuming it can be built, an Iron Golem costs 80,000 g.p., but 1000 Adamantium arrows cost 60,000 g.p. Swarms would be very hard to control and maintain. One thousand flasks of Alchemist fire (to say nothing of a wand of fireballs) probably cost an army less than fielding swarm units, and are generally more versital. A classic 'Knight', say 4th level fighter with warhorse, full plate, lance and shield is an expensive weapon, but it is pretty darn effective at alot of things. Spirited charges easily do 3d8+9 damage on a hit, which will overcome most DR's. If I'm getting charged by 100 4th level fighters with Spirited Charge and Ride By attack, I'm probably going to take that pretty seriously.
Anything less than a full fledged Dreadnought is going to find that Brutes (orges, hill giants, war beasts, 4th level fighters with heavy lances and spirited charge) are a serious threat to them. Trents are engines of destruction, but they can be overwhelmed by a fantasy army in the Ridley Scott mold. Brutes in turn have problems against massed troops, because their AC's typically aren't high enough to provide security.
Likewise, any fantasy army that expects to meet Wizards in battle is going to have 'special forces' detailed to handle that problem, likely to include wizards of its own.
Funny you should mention that. My campaign assumes that sometime in the past, there was the magical equivalent of nuclear exchanges and the Gods now take a really dim view of high level spellcasters engaging in warfare. In fact, there are still large swaths of the world were wizards are burned at the stake whenever they are found out.
Actually, I think Faerun has something along those lines as well, though in practice the gods of Faerun don't seem to keep a very tight control on things because there are 30th level spellcasters blowing up cities every third Sunday in the FR apparantly.
TerraDave said:
One of the Midkemia books, I think Shards of a Broken Crown, actually deals with this matter. Pug is the immensely powerful magician that can obliterate armies. But eveyone wants to use him...the King wants him to destroy the Keshians, the Keshians want him to leave them alone, or fight for them, etc.
What does he do? Walk away. Go into exile. The secular political structure basically exiles him, but given he could single-handledly destroy their army, he doesn't really care. I suspect that he really didn't want to be responsible for killing a bunch of lvl 1 guys with a wife and kid on the way back home, and saw it as an abuse of his powers.
Similarly, in Troy, (the movie, not the book), Achilles seemed somewhat hesitant to fight at the beginning. He knew nobody could beat him, and maybe felt a bit guilty about the fact?
I'd think that high-level characters would get tired of being asked to slaughter enemy soldiers. They know they have a distinct advantage because of their skill, but don't want to be reduced to a simple killing machine.
Banshee
Celebrim said:
Golems are a problem to command on the battlefield as well. I guess it's a matter of rules interpretation, but golems have no intelligence score. You could throw a big tarp over the head of a golem and it would have to be "commanded" to remove it according to the 3.5 SRD. Interfering with the creator's ability to command the golem would probably be the most effective strategy. Another weakness is it's inability to adapt to changing conditions. If you told it to attack a skirmisher, who then fled, wouldn't it follow the skirmisher until commanded to do otherwise?
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