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Some thoughts on D&D warfare

Celebrim said:
I don't know. To a certain extent, that's what I'm trying to ascertain. I assumed that pretty much everyone with enough play experience had decided that 'legacy demographics' in the DMG were untenable even before 3rd edition came out. So, I'm rather surprised to be having an arugment with people who claim that the only reason that the default demographics aren't working for me is that I'm tactically inept, or that I'm somehow assuming that armies are equipped with nothing more than sharpened sticks, or that 3rd level warriors are inhumanly capable superheroes.

Two of your last three statements are WAY overstating what I intended - which probably explains some things. I'm NOT saying that you're tactically inept - I was trying to say that there were some options that were worth looking at before bumping up the levels of NPCs involved. I actually enjoyed the "thought experiment" that you were throwing at me with regards to coming up with counter-measures to things. I'm really sorry that things were so insulting on your end.

With regards to the "sharpened sticks" statement - I found many of your examples to be heavily one-sided: I think there's little room for debating that if a cleric in heavy armor with expeditious retreat is able to escape from soldiers, then those soldiers must not have horses. Are those points really that insulting? Perhaps I summed it up by saying something like "give those War1s some equipment in your hypotheticals please". That's all I meant.

BTW- I have no experience with the actual 3E demographics and wouldn't try to defend them. I used them as a short-hand for a demographics system of some type.
 

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gizmo33 said:
Oops - I think we agree. I didn't realize that there was a significant difference between War and Ftr, I only use fighters IMC. Replace all my 'War1' with 'Ftr1'.

I hardly know how to respond to that.

I don't use cleave either (it severely breaks the EL for certain creatures). I didn't think that houserules would make much of a difference here, but maybe they do.

With a guess, only about as much as outlawing evocation spells would make.

A team of 8th to 10th level characters that is optimized for the strike-force scenario SHOULD probably wreak havoc on a small army (of the scale described).

Good grief, what do you disagree with me on then?

IME (of which you appear to not think much) high level wizards often teleport away and leave high level fighters stranded.

Well, I don't know what to make of your experience, if only because it appears its colored by even more house rules than I have, but I would say that the above represents a break down in party cohesion that would be utterly shocking to the players I'm most used to playing with. When the chips are down, players expect the other players to be part of the team and they expect them to be highly skillful members of the team that regularly save each others bacon.

I suspect that people who habitually start PCs off at levels higher than 1 do not see this kind of stratification in their higher level parties (though I'm not sure) - but this might have a big impact on what our experiences have been.

My experience is that what you described isn't related to level. Wizards and rogues are expected as part of their unwritten 'terms of employment' to be able to perform solo undertakings that are valuable for achieving party goals, but when the party is collected they are expected to act like the components of a well oiled machine.

Strange coincidence that you mention frost giants. IME Frost Giants in 1E could get killed by a score or so Lvl 0 mercs (all that damage doesn't seem to go far on a single swing) . Things, of course, have changed with 3E giants, but it's one of the few monster types that I think a very conventionally equipped force of Ftr1 could battle without much thought - AFAIK there aren't much of the hit-and-run issues to deal with AFAIK

Going right back to the beginning and starting over, as I've said before the demographics of the game are hanging around despite the fact that the assumptions of the game have completely changed. If you start giving monsters attributes like constitution and strength, and start letting normal people gain levels, and start actually paying attention to things like size and reach and so forth, then the demographics are going to have to change.

That said, I could have made the same point about the problem with the demographic assumptions by mentioning a different monster. For example, what do 1st edition armies/societies do about maruading gangs of gargoyles? And how to 1st edition societies manage to deal with monsters like gargoyles given that it takes something a 17th level to make a sword +1 and then only with great difficulty? The basic point remains the same. The rules and the demographics explaining how to apply those rules to get a functioning game world just don't agree.
 

Celebrim said:
You'll note please that I quoted one of your written statements rather than one of your thoughts.

I'm sure you didn't quote a statement where I talked about my head.

Celebrim said:
If I'd wanted to comment on one of your actual thoughts directly, I would have quoted one of those. Nonetheless, I think I'm somewhat justified in saying that your actual written statements may at some level have a relationship to what is going on in your head,

No, you are not justified in those terms. Telling me that thoughts relate to words is completely uninteresting and useless - so I do not believe that was your intention since your writing seems more purposeful than that. It's clear that you're upset with how this has gone - again I apologize for anything that has offended. There was nothing I found to be stupid or boring about your comments and I have no negative opinion about your psychology.

Celebrim said:
and if you yourself don't know what is going on in your head may I suggest that you read your written statements and see what they seem to indicate is going on in your head.

Sure - but I've been trying to keep it to simple terms. :) Seriously though, IME a persons thoughts are way more complicated than what they can say about them in short order. What is the most important point that you have? Are you sure that you've made it? Are your statements coming from a thought or idea that hasn't been expressed? Those were the things I was unsure about myself.

For example - I suspect that you're feeling of insult might be greatly affecting the things you are saying to the extent the meaning of what you're are saying is not quite clear and your statements might at times be counter-productive to their intent. So I will take your advice - it's part of the challenge of clearly communicating ideas - but the flip way in which you recommend something that's quite difficult suggests that it's something with which you are not extremely familiar.
 

S'mon said:
This sounds like it might work in theory but I've GM'd D&D for 20 years and I've never seen PCs single-handedly defeat a sizable army (10,000+).

Obviously you've not read Sepulchrave's Story Hour


http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58227&page=1&pp=32

ONE DRUID
Originally posted by Sepulchrave II on 06-24-2002

Quote:

Any chance of this wonderful story being made available in a single downloadable format??




Eventually.

I will try and answer other questions that I've been ignoring ASAP.



**


Brey gazed skywards and observed the quickening clouds. They were moving at an unnatural speed and, seemingly, converging from all directions simultaneously. A huge thunderhead was forming directly above the camp.

The Druid, he thought, cursing. Apparently, the rumours that the Nature-Priest had no stomach for the fight were wrong.

The Templar ran towards Melion’s tent, barking orders as he moved. "Go to ground. Get everyone back from the waterfront."

Brey burst in to the command tent where Melion sat stiffly, his age apparent, unaccustomed to the armour that he was wearing for the first time in twenty years. The Inquisitor General was in conference with the Templar Lords Irian and Hembur, Rede’s deputies and ascendant stars in the new administration.

Melion growled. "Lord Brey, might I remind you that your probationary period is not yet over. A little more decorum would be appreciated."

"Nwm is here," Brey said simply.

Melion swallowed and, anticipating a firestorm, warded himself against the possible ill effects..

The Temple knights and soldiers looked up and saw the eagle descending upon them, and as it swooped, the clouds parted from the gale which issued from it. Many of the more ignorant cowered, thinking that Oronthon’s wrath had descended upon them. Rumbles of thunder echoed across the field, and lightning flickered across the cloudtops.

Melion shouted across the meadows. "It is a pagan trick – do not be dismayed. We are favoured!" His voice, thin and reedy although it was, carried conviction and confidence.

Nwm circled at an altitude of fifteen hundred feet, his pinioned form naked against the clouds except for a sprig of mistletoe which hung from one huge talon. He screeched a spell, and giant eagles appeared around him. They plummeted downwards.

Melion cursed. The Druid fully understood the use of appropriate symbolism and propaganda, it appeared. And he was currently out of range. The Inquisitor summoned four celestial griffons and dispatched them to intercept the eagles.

Nwm resumed his human form – a speck against the grey clouds. He began to drop rapidly, but was unperturbed. Many of the more quick-witted amongst those on the ground drew bows, and scores of quarrels and arrows were shot towards him, only to be deflected harmlessly away by the tornado-force winds which emanated from the Druid.

There. Melion. Nwm concentrated as the air rushed around him, and evoked the effects of a spell already cast. The sky crackled, and a single stroke of lightning, fed by the living storm and immensely potent, arced downwards and struck the Inquisitor, dropping him instantly.

As Templars crowded around Melion in an effort to revive him, lesser clerics began to cast spells at Nwm. He shook off the effects of three attempts to silence him, and no trace of concern crossed his face as a dozen celestial hawks and eagles, two celestial pegasi and several minor elementals began to manifest across the field. At a height of forty fathoms, feathery wings sprouted from the Druid’s back and he arrested his fall.

No pity, he thought to himself. I must show no pity.

Nwm began to fly upwards again, and invoked another spell. Vines sprang up, covering over an acre at the centre of the camp, in an area where the tents were most densely crowded. They wrapped around arms and legs, pinning many of those within a one-hundred yard circle, and impeding all of them in their efforts to move. Across the infested area, dozens of soldiers began to sicken and fall from the poison in the toxic vines.

The Druid looked downwards and observed that the celestial birds and elementals were closing on him slowly and beginning to converge. He smiled grimly – he knew that they could not penetrate the winds around him. He spoke a potent summoning, and the sky nearby began to move and distort: the vague outline of something huge and nebulous appeared next to him. It began to move towards the ground effortlessly and with great speed.

No mercy, he reminded himself.

The Druid drew his staff from across his back and clasped it tightly in his fist. He spoke a word of power, and continued his ascent. The orb on the staff crackled darkly as its ultimate power manifested.

Below the thunderhead, an area of blackness formed, shot through by purple lightning and moving with wisps of dark vapour. A huge shadow appeared above the camp, and peals of thunder broke out, deafening those below. On the ground, the elemental conjured by Nwm was ripping a swathe through those who tried to resist it. It had begun to spin on its axis, flinging tents on the periphery of the camp in all directions. It moved slowly, deliberately and systematically eliminating those who did not flee.

But the most brutal effects were yet to come. Nwm flew on, maintaining concentration upon the unnatural cloud, and acid began to rain down. The Druid glanced down to see Brey and two other Templar Lords standing impotently over the body of Melion. He didn’t know their names. He didn’t care. Irian perished, obliterated by three bolts of lightning which simultaneously struck him from above, Hembur almost died, struck by three more.

In the hail which followed, Lord Hembur did die. So did eight hundred others, many entangled in the poisoned vines, and unable to move.

As the minor elementals closed on him, Nwm swerved down to meet them. They, and then the celestial animals were blown out of the Druid’s path.

Nwm banked around and flew back towards the camp. He circled around the periphery, looking for those who might still be standing. Many were fleeing north and south, parallel to the river’s course, whilst others were routed to the west. A few brave souls dared the river itself. Still, the huge elemental moved unchecked through the camp.

No mercy, Nwm swallowed.

The Druid, from a safe height, blocked off the egress from the north of the field, where many were attempting to escape, with a vast cloud of swarming insects. Over a period of half a minute, in a four-hundred foot arc which spread west and then south, pockets of grasses and weeds sprang up, entangling many and causing others to flee in panic away from them, lest they were poisonous. Nwm began to descend, but before he could cast another spell, he was enveloped in silence. Swearing wordlessly, he began to climb again, reached a height of a thousand feet, and circled slowly, waiting for the spell to wear off. The Druid waited patiently – the clouds were already pregnant with energy again. Two minutes passed. Three. Four. Five.

Suddenly, the noise of the wind and storm flooded again into Nwm’s ears as the magical silence evaporated. He concentrated on his torc, seeking mentally for powerful spellcasters. Their whereabouts were determined in an instant. Two of significant ability.

Leading Templars were attempting to rally their knights and auxiliaries and order the retreat from the field. Nwm ignored them, his gaze shifting to a lone figure. A cleric in shining plate was performing a ritual desperately, beside of the wreck of a tent. Nwm spoke a word, and another streak of lightning flashed down, targeting the cleric. It dissipated harmlessly around him, and he continued to intone.

Warded, Nwm thought, and powerfully. The Druid ignored him and began to beat his way downwards.

Hundreds were fleeing southwards and westwards now, as all other ways were effectively blocked. Nwm intoned yet another spell as he closed, and a curtain of green fire, three hundred feet long, sprang up. Intense heat blistered skin and caused people to shy away again – most of those few foolish enough to try and pass through were immolated.

Chaos reigned upon the ground, and had they stopped to think amid their panic, the fleeing troops would have recognized that the Druid, with his spells, had created an immense funnel upon the ground, and that they were being herded into it.

Nwm flew down, and prepared to invoke a succession of flame strikes and flaming spheres, emptying his magical arsenal.

Abruptly, in the eye of calm air at the centre of his personal hurricane, Eadric and Mostin materialized. Mostin floated easily, and Eadric was supported by a pair of winged boots, borrowed from Ortwin.

The Paladin looked grim. "Please stop, Nwm. You’ve made your point."

**

Brey, now nominally in command of the whole force, was trying to establish a modicum of order. He cursed the Druid, and wondered again why he himself had not been killed. He glanced upwards, only to see three small figures flying east over the river.


**

Tramst was a devout man. A good man. As he knelt in his armour, his hands clasped to his chest and feverishly intoned, he knew that his prayers would be answered. Amid the wreck of the camp, he tightly gripped his eagle-and-sun, the symbol of his faith.

Oronthon heard his supplication, and answered. A light appeared, emanating from a deva armed with a flaming sword. Tramst bathed in it.

"What would you have of me?" The celestial inquired, "and I will appoint a task for you in return."

"That you invoke just retribution upon the Heretic and his pagan friend. That you punish them for their misdeeds, and slay them as they deserve."

The deva nodded. "If I do this, then here is your task in payment: you will willingly endure the torments of the lowest hell for eternity, secure in the knowledge that your perfect faith will sustain you, because you have never done an impure deed or thought an impure thought."

Tramst looked astounded.

"A different task, perhaps?" The deva asked.



DM Note:

The spells cast by Nwm that day were, in this order:

Wind Walk (in effect from previous day)
Big Sky (at the dolmens)
Summon Nature’s Ally IV (Xorn burial)
Control Weather
Greater Call Lightning
Control Winds (spherical emanation type)
Summon Nature’s Ally VI (5 giant eagles)
Master Air
Poison Vines
Summon Nature’s Ally VIII (Greater Air Elemental)
Storm of Vengeance (From the orb)
Insect Plague
Entangle (x5)
Wall of Fire

Nwm also had 3 flame strikes prepared which, unfortunately, he didn’t get a chance to use. He was maxed out for offensive spells.

‘How could you have let that happen?’ You might ask. Aside from story considerations (it makes good drama, after all), it is not that improbable: consider 5000+ people and a thousand horses contained in a area a quarter mile wide and half a mile long with little or no means to defend themselves against sustained magical attack: when the panic begins, its going to get messy.

As you can imagine, running this was extremely difficult, and involved several arbitrary decisions about reactions – especially wrt. Melion’s use of his Protection from Elements: a fire ward did, in fact, seem reasonable given Nwm’s previous attack. Note that the ‘Greater Call Lightning’ bolt summoned by Nwm – 15d10 – was devastating to Melion, an old man with very poor constitution. He failed his save and suffered around 80 points of damage. He would have hit Nwm with a ‘Sunburst’ had he had the opportunity, the only long-range spell available to him.
I asked Dave what he would have done had he been blinded – he thought for a second and said "Wildshape to bat."

Clerical divine magic is all but useless at long range – take a look through the PHB. Druidic firepower is excellent at long range, however.

The total area affected by a "Storm of Vengeance" is around 10 acres – the entire camp was only 80 acres or so. As everyone in the storm takes 6d6 damage with no save (acid and hailstones), and it was evoked above the centre of the camp, your average 1st-3rd level warrior or cleric and 1st-2nd level fighter or paladin is going to die outright. 800 casualties seemed a little conservative, if anything.

And buggered if I was going to roll that many dice.


The Temple forces consisted of

1) 4000 auxilliaries (mainly War 1-2, with some War 3+)
2) Around 300 engineers, armourers, weaponsmiths etc. (mainly exp 1-3)
3) Nearly a thousand ‘camp followers,’ including hangers-on, drovers, merchants, food vendors, etc. etc. etc., mainly on the periphery. Mostly low-level commoners hoping to make a few $$ out of the dirty business of war.

4) 800 Templars split thusly:

500 fighters, 120 paladins and 80 clerics of levels 1-3,

60 "Specials" – mainly fighters and paladins of higher level, but including some PrC Templars and Warpriests, 4 x 5th level clerics, 1 x 11th, 1 x 9th level clerics and 1 16th level clerical spellcaster equivalent (Melion). I had only the higher level clerics’ spells prepared ahead of time.

40 Priests (Experts) – mostly support staff for the Temple and/or Inquisition

But Nwm can deliver just too many spells from a distance of 1000 feet.

My arbitrarily determined death total for the whole sordid episode was around a thousand – more than twenty percent of the army. In a pitched battle, this kind of loss would have been deemed utterly catastrophic.
 

Great thread.

'Who would win in a war?' was one of the questions that interested me when I started up my first 3.0 campaign after many years away from D&D. The world was just starting to recover from a magical apocalypse so the new powers didn't have any history to look back on to see what would be the most effective tactics (sort of paralleling me relearning the rules). My experiences were closest to what Celebrim has been talking about.

I ran fairly large scale combats (100 - 200 participants) on several occasions between groups that I thought would give a representative sample of what a would occur on the battlefield in a war between the factions. Once the power level of the characters reached about 8th level, low level creatures (1st or 2nd level) on the battle map became mostly irrelevant to the battle. If they massed up to swarm high level fighters, high level magic-users would mow them down with spells. When they spread out to avoid spells the fighters could pick their battles, and wear them down without taking significant damage.

On the other hand, I also found that greatly widening the scale of the battle could change things, perhaps indicating that better tactics on my part, or minor changes to house rules could have a large impact on high vs low battles, as gizmo33 mentions. For one battle I used 30x scale (1 inch = 150ft.) to represent several hundred low level archers spread out across a rocky valley, with a force of several dozen ogres hidden in strategic spots, led by a few mages who were invisible and could fly but weren't high enough level to really hurt the party (only 5-7th though the party didn't know that at the time). They mainly coordinated the lower level units.

The party consisted of about 12 total (PCs + NPC allies) 13th - 14th level characters. The mobile fighters (there was a reason that boots of speed became known as boots of brokenness) charged in and started killing everyone they could reach while the mages used up all their long range spells (to reduced effect because of the rocky and steeply sloping terrain). The mages were nervous about getting into medium spell range (where they could be pincushined by the long bows if the lurking mages dispelled their invisibility) and zoomed around looking for the enemy mages. Meanwhile the slower moving party members (clerics and a paladin) were swarmed by ogres, once the fighters (of various specializations) were out of sight. The fighters were slowly accumulating melee and arrow damage, and eventually realized (they had become somewhat arrogant) they were cut off both from healing and quick escape. The clerics and paladin cut their way free, but were forced to retreat even further away from the fighters. Eventually two of the fighters retreated carrying the bodies of two fallen companions. One of the mages flew down to rescue the remaining fighter, and faced off against the enemy mages (who had been conserving their magic missiles for such an opportunity) she forced them to flee, but ended up needing rescue by the other two magic users.

With standard damage rules half the party would have died (I house ruled no death until 2Xnegative CON, but resurrection essentially required divine intervention), instead they had to quickly retreat to friendly territory, and were far more cautious travelling overland after that.
 

Hejdun said:
I think there are several reasons not to use hordes of low-level armies for armies.

1) They can't kill much. They are severely underclassed against even moderately high CR monsters or leveled NPCs. They are virtually useless against anything with flight, fear effects, area attacks, or damage reduction.

The main purpose of low level troops is cannon fodder. Yes they can be blown apart by a fireball, but that's their purpose: using up spell-slots of spellcasters, HP of high-level fighters, etc.

2) They are hideously expensive. Ok, let's assume that you have a professional army of 10,000 people. In just one year, it will cost 1,825,000gp to feed them all.

A commoner survives with 1sp per WEEK.

If you want to actually go on the offensive, it will take quite a bit of logistical support to sustain those 10,000 troops. We're talking about needing to haul 10,000 lbs of food to your army every day. The farther you wish to go (i.e. the longer the supply line is), the more wagons you'll need. And then you need to worry about clean water, which could be handled with several decanters of endless water.

That's the reality of medieval warfare...

You also need to equip those soldiers. Say something like each soldier is equipped with scale mail, large wooden shield, longsword, possibly some javelins. Call it 75gp per soldier. That's another 750,000gp just to equip those 10,000 soldiers with mediocre equipment. Archers are more expensive (bows are quite expensive), and cavalry even more so (even light warhorses are 150gp, then there's the saddle, bit and briddle, feed...)

The bulk of the troops will use clubs and spears, not shiny longswords.

And THEN, those 10,000 soldiers could be doing something productive instead of going off to war. Farming, blacksmithing, etc.

That's a problem in every war, but war isn't a rational thing to begin with...
 

S'mon said:
This sounds like it might work in theory but I've GM'd D&D for 20 years and I've never seen PCs single-handedly defeat a sizable army (10,000+). Commando raids against mundane troops always work the first time - maybe you even kill a few hundred. If you keep on doing it, in my experience the enemy adapts and eventually you get killed. In my 1e AD&D game a 20th level NPC Fighter was the last survivor of his group, the Darksword Knights, and went on a teleporting killing spree vs the good guys. He killed a bunch of mid-levellers, until he rolled a '1' on a save vs a 1st level Command spell and was swiftly killed. Smart high level characters do _not_ assume they can't be threatened by LLCs, and they do _not_ give the enemy time to adapt to their tactics or concentrate all efforts on defeating the LLCs. In my experience HLCs are successful when they act as a force multiplier for mundane troops, just like the air power analogy you mention. A Fighter-15 leading 500 War-2s is, in my experience, far far more effective than a Fighter-15 on his own. He might be equally well or better employed bodyguarding the Sorc-15, but once the Sorc is out of spells he still needs to make himself useful.

How does your average army, armed with bows and swords, kill a flying (500 feet in the air), stoneskinned, wizard, accompanied by a flying cleric, when the wizard has 10 wands of fireball and can just teleport away when things start looking bad? I didn't mean to imply that it could be done in one day, but ultimately whether it takes a day or a week is relatively irrelevent. The army will be destroyed, run away from poor morale ("We've lost 40% of our men and haven't killed a soul, and you expect us to continue?"), crippled by disease, or run out of food (logistics are hideously hard to maintain when you have any kind of strike force). The only possible way that the army could win is if they a) didn't care at all about losses, and thus, in some way or another, had nearly unbreakable morale and b) could complete their entire objective in limited time (less than a week), from the start of the campaign to the end.

The fact that the enemy will have their own HLC is kind of the point. The HLCs on both sides will duke it out. But here's my argument: whoever's HLCs win, will be able to thus completely obliterate the other side's army. So why bother bringing in your army until your HLCs have either won or lost?

As far as the "it's better to have 500 mooks than not," I would argue "no, it's really not." The cost of training and equipping those 500 warriors will be staggering; equipping them with even modest equipment will cost around 40gp. If you want to feed them for a year, that's another 90,000gp (per year, and it will invariably be more for an army). Training them was probably hideously expensive. I don't recall seeing any rules for how long or how much it costs to train a warrrior, but it is probably something like 6 months at minimum, 2 years at maximum. And then you have to house them in some sort of barracks.

You could easily have spent 400,000gp on upkeep, equipment, and training for those 500 warriors. Then the fight becomes Fighter15 with 500 War2s vs. Fighter15 with 400,000gp more. My money is still on the long Fighter 15.

Take that same argument but magnify it by 100 and you'll see why armies are more of a bane than a boon. Sure, you might outnumber my conventional forces 10:1, but I outnumber your HLCs, and mine are MUCH better equipped. And after I finish killing your HLCs, your army WILL be destroyed.
 

leporidae said:
n the other hand, I also found that greatly widening the scale of the battle could change things, perhaps indicating that better tactics on my part...

Yes, they were. You adopted tactics appropriate to the technology, which always fundamentally what good tactics are about. I snipped the rest, because I think it can be summed up rather quickly.

You adopted WWII era tactics. You took a large force of 'riflemen' and distributed them over a large area. Then you hid at strategic positions 'tanks', and provided the whole with 'artillery support'.

Archers = riflemen
Ogres = tanks
Wizards = Artillery

Your party got overwhelmed because they failed to address this change in tactics with appropriate tactics of their own. Had they maintained party cohesion and responded with appropriate counter-tactics, your WWII era tactics would have provided only marginal utility. In fact, by distributing your force over a wide area without means of communication, you have actually made it easier to take out the force peicemeal.

I've actually been down this path before. As you start inventing the magical items for overcoming these problems, the countermeasures you create get more and more like technology. One DM I had went this way and ran with it, and before you knew it the battlefield featured things that looked alot like artillery barrages, radios, MRE's, air power, machine guns, tanks, battleships, and so forth and the proper way of fighting was looking alot more like Stalingrad than Marathon or Agincourt. In any event, even all of this did nothing to prevent the battles actually being determined by small teams of higher level characters. On the other hand, at least the game world had actually integrated into it the implications of the rules.
 
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gizmo33 said:
The basic point I've been trying to make on this subject is that victory in battle can be the result of something other than personal "single-combat" fighting ability (which I equate with level).

Minor point - the most feared fighting force in my campaign world are the Mongali (Mongols); and the average Mongali is indeed just a War-1 - but a War-1 with a horse (well, pony) and a bow, and the ability to use both. The only limitation on the number of War-3 Landsknechte pikemen he can slaughter is how fast his arrows run out...
 

Anaxander said:
The main purpose of low level troops is cannon fodder. Yes they can be blown apart by a fireball, but that's their purpose: using up spell-slots of spellcasters, HP of high-level fighters, etc.
Using the air force analogy again, by default, your air force will attack your enemy's air force. Same with navy, army, etc. Only after you thoroughly defeat your opposing counterpart do you begin to attack other things (the opposing army, for instance). Which is the point I've been trying to make all along, the first battle is always going to come down to HLC vs. HLC. Only after one side or the other is defeated do they start attacking the army.
Anaxander said:
A commoner survives with 1sp per WEEK.
A commoner is also farming or otherwise producing. An army in the field doesn't. An army in training doesn't. A commoner also built his own shack to live in. He also probably doesn't get as good of a diet as he should (i.e. malnurished and weak).
Anaxander said:
The bulk of the troops will use clubs and spears, not shiny longswords.
How are they going to kill anything with no armor and only spears?


I'm beginning to think that we should just have a mock war. Something like an army of 10,000, with a few sergeants, maybe some exotic corps (flying cavalry, for instance) vs. a party of 4 20th level PCs.
 

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