D&D 5E Some thoughts on skills.

[MichaelSomething]

I think the whole concept is wrong-headed and primarily exploited as an excuse. For the designers, it's an excuse to avoid actually designing anything. For DMs, it's an excuse to lord their power.

Because DMs already had the greatest possible powers they could have within the context of the game without unilaterally overruling common sense and social contracts. Any further empowerment must thus come from...?

Don't threaten me with a good time...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Don't threaten me with a good time...

I fear I don't understand the connection between the essay and what I said.

 

[iserith]

I was specifically talking about stuff like "I pick the lock" requiring a DC 15 check to occur. I've never seen much point to "trained vs. untrained" type action limits, they're better covered by simply setting your DCs properly. If a slick, smooth wall is a DC 25 to climb, then it by definition requires training to handle, because you need a +5 bonus for any chance of success.

Yeah I don't really like set DCs for things in this game. It becomes too cumbersome in my view as evidenced by D&D 3.Xe. I prefer that be set by the DM as needed with some general support by the DMG as to what makes sense in particular contexts so DMs are empowered to rule easily and consistency.

 

[Pedantic]

Yeah I don't really like set DCs for things in this game. It becomes too cumbersome in my view as evidenced by D&D 3.Xe. I prefer that be set by the DM as needed with some general support by the DMG as to what makes sense in particular contexts so DMs are empowered to rule easily and consistency.

Great. In the interests of modularity, let's print both systems. Yours can be Option 1, just copy the list of generic DCs from 5e adjusted as necessary for scaling, and I'll take the next 20 pages for Option 2.

 

[iserith]

Great. In the interests of modularity, let's print both systems. Yours can be Option 1, just copy the list of generic DCs from 5e adjusted as necessary for scaling, and I'll take the next 20 pages for Option 2.

But then it would look like WotC was endorsing your style of play in addition to mine and, in the interests of internet discussions, that's not a good outcome.

 

[ph0rk]

I prefer that be set by the DM as needed with some general support by the DMG

This is what leads to DC creep, and punishes the players that don't have expertise or choosing skills that don't align with their primary stat.

Some DMs won't let their DCs creep, but I'd guess that most will be unable to help it, because the system doesn't set them up for it.

The only way to avoid it is to have a lengthy list of example DCs and set DCs in published adventures, as 3.5 did.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

This is what leads to DC creep, and punishes the players that don't have expertise or choosing skills that don't align with their primary stat.

Some DMs won't let their DCs creep, but I'd guess that most will be unable to help it, because the system doesn't set them up for it.

I mean, you are essentially arguing that DC creep is a DM issue. On that, we agree. A system is only as good as the DM's willingness to follow it.

The only way to avoid it is to have a lengthy list of example DCs and set DCs in published adventures, as 3.5 did.

Or, the only other way to avoid it, the DM could follow the general guidance of 10 = easy, 15 = medium, 20 = hard. And do that regardless of PC levels. Any DM who is actively creeping up their DCs as the PCs level up should be reminded that this advice is in the DMG.

 

[Kannik]

Personally I prefer broader skills, especially if it avoids the Hide + Move Silently issue, where you really need to get both skills to be able to do anything effectively, and so it doesn't increase choice or any meaningful distinctions and only serves to create bloat and eat any of those additional skill points you may have added to the system. I've not bothered yet to go through and create my 'optimal' set of skills for 5e (plenty of room/time to do that in the other games we play), but the Athletics + Acrobatics split would be one candidate for that -- especially since I'm also much in favour of the flexible attribute way of handling skills.

 

[iserith]

This is what leads to DC creep, and punishes the players that don't have expertise or choosing skills that don't align with their primary stat.

Some DMs won't let their DCs creep, but I'd guess that most will be unable to help it, because the system doesn't set them up for it.

The only way to avoid it is to have a lengthy list of example DCs and set DCs in published adventures, as 3.5 did.

The DMG already says that sticking to just DC 10, 15, and 20 is sufficient for the game to run fine. If the DM goes against that, that's on them. The DMG can't stop a DM from touching a hot stove or sticking their finger in a light socket either.

 

[Clint_L]

The DMG already says that sticking to just DC 10, 15, and 20 is sufficient for the game to run fine. If the DM goes against that, that's on them. The DMG can't stop a DM from touching a hot stove or sticking their finger in a light socket either.

It could if you hit them with it, right on the hand!