D&D 5E Some thoughts on skills.

[Minigiant]

But then it would look like WotC was endorsing your style of play in addition to mine and, in the interests of internet discussions, that's not a good outcome.

Not if WOTC offer 3-4 variants for each major system then made them seriously and not unusable unbalanced messes.

The DMG was filled with "Grognards bait" for people who would never play 5e and only bought it as collectables.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Not if WOTC offer 3-4 variants for each major system then made them seriously and not unusable unbalanced messes.

The DMG was filled with "Grognards bait" for people who would never play 5e and only bought it as collectables.

Exactly.

Hence why, for example, every time I have mentioned that I support "novice level" rules, I make very explicit that I want them to be actually well-designed and genuinely supported. I don't want them to be in any way deprecated, ghettoized, or treated like an afterthought. Because that creates, as you say, "grognards' bait." Much like how the repeated statements that 5e toooootally learned from 4e you guys, which were (if I may) "tactical bait." The vaporware "tactical combat module," for instance, or the vaporware "Warlord Fighter," amongst other things.

 

[Rabulias]

It is a problem if we're evaluating something like 3.5 Use Magic Device and Swim as equally investments in a scarce economy, but there's a lot of ways to solve that problem.

I know which one I would pick in a Conan the Pirate game!

 

[iserith]

Not if WOTC offer 3-4 variants for each major system then made them seriously and not unusable unbalanced messes.

The DMG was filled with "Grognards bait" for people who would never play 5e and only bought it as collectables.

I don't really see what's unusuble or unbalanced about ability checks as it currently stands. Say what you want to do, DM picks an ability score to resolve any uncertainty as to outcome, add a skill or tool proficiency bonus if it applies. Easy.

 

[Pedantic]

This is what leads to DC creep, and punishes the players that don't have expertise or choosing skills that don't align with their primary stat.

Some DMs won't let their DCs creep, but I'd guess that most will be unable to help it, because the system doesn't set them up for it.

The only way to avoid it is to have a lengthy list of example DCs and set DCs in published adventures, as 3.5 did.

I've given up hope of persuading DMs that it is largely a waste of time and energy to engage in iterative, unrecorded amateur game design (and a much larger waste of money to purchase a system that casually expects that work from you).

I know which one I would pick in a Conan the Pirate game!

It's UMD, so you can use scrolls of water breathing and freedom of movement.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't really see what's unusuble or unbalanced about ability checks as it currently stands. Say what you want to do, DM picks an ability score to resolve any uncertainty as to outcome, add a skill or tool proficiency bonus if it applies. Easy.

You forgot the most important part."DM chooses a DC"

Which actions get which DCs and what circumstantial bonuses/penalty applies determines the style of game. Ultimately what gives each Fantasy TTRPG their feel is the success chance of the actions and effects.

 

[Rabulias]

It's UMD, so you can use scrolls of water breathing and freedom of movement.

In a true Conan-like game, you won't find scrolls (or many other magic items), except in the dying hands of vile sorcerers, whom you have struck down before they could use foul magicks upon you, by Crom!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not if WOTC offer 3-4 variants for each major system then made them seriously and not unusable unbalanced messes.

The DMG was filled with "Grognards bait" for people who would never play 5e and only bought it as collectables.

WotC thinks they're too big to fail. Why would they fix anything?

 

[iserith]

You forgot the most important part."DM chooses a DC"

Which actions get which DCs and what circumstantial bonuses/penalty applies determines the style of game. Ultimately what gives each Fantasy TTRPG their feel is the success chance of the actions and effects.

Choose 10, 15, or 20 when the outcome is uncertain and there's a meaningful consequence for failure as determined by the DM. A DM may decide that they prefer a lot of rolls and thus establish that uncertainty often, and they end up with the Rolling With It method. Or they prefer very few rolls and thus establish very little uncertainty, arriving at the Ignoring the Dice method. Or they balance declaring uncertainty with certainty and walk The Middle Path. This is all right in the DMG.

 

[Minigiant]

Choose 10, 15, or 20 when the outcome is uncertain and there's a meaningful consequence for failure as determined by the DM. A DM may decide that they prefer a lot of rolls and thus establish that uncertainty often, and they end up with the Rolling With It method. Or they prefer very few rolls and thus establish very little uncertainty, arriving at the Ignoring the Dice method. Or they balance declaring uncertainty with certainty and walk The Middle Path. This is all right in the DMG.

You are missing my point.

A DM can choose 5,10, 15, 20 or 25 for the DC of an action like breaking down a door. This choice and deciding which bonuses applies will determine the style of the DMs game.

"Jum a 3 foot gap. DC 20." "Convice the lord to lend you men to guard your camp. DC 5."

Choosing a lower number makes the PCs look more competent. Choosing a higher number makes the PCs incompetent. Choosing the lower numbers makes them look superheroic. Choosing the highest number makes them look unable to do their jobs.

There is a lot of talk in the community about "DMs letting the players role or roleplay or whatever". There is very little discussion within the community of which numbers a DM should choose and what opportunity costs they should apply to get the feel and style they desire. It's all "Just choose a number. Wow. That was unexpected"