Song of Ice and Fire Question...

[Allanon]

As for the writing itself, I found nothing particularly sophisticated about it. He knows the english language and doesnt forget his punctuation but big deal. The meat of the story is still characters I don't care about.

>Snipped<
Kahuna burger

Thank you both for giving you're opinions again about how bad this book really is. Besides that noone here asked for them, they aren't at all relevant to the discussion which is taking place here. If the book so deeply disappointed you I would advice you to forget all about it instead of putting more salt in you're own wounds and constantly reply to topics discussing it. Lot's of people like these books and the fact that you don't is by no means justification enough for you to begin trolling every thread opened about it.

-Allanon

 

[nikolai]

I think what Kahuna Burger and DocMoriartty have posted is very interesting.

I really like ASoIaF because of the way it plays with various genre conventions and that it's so unlike the various "watch the good guys win" stories that I think fantasy is littered with. I find it really interesting that there is a sizable contingent of fantasy fans who don't like it. I think the two reasons that have been given:

1) the plot twists are so outside genre conventions that it breaks their suspension of disbelief,

2) they can't find a hero to root for because of (a) there are few clearly good or heroic characters, and (b) the punishment dealt to the "good guys" means it's difficult to get involved with their story.

I just find this interesting, even though they didn't effect my enjoyment of the books.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I don't think this is true. I may be wrong, but which royal princess screamed it in his face? If you're thinking of Arya, she's not a royal princess. She said her piece in front of court (where her behaviour would have lead people to believe Joffrey was telling the truth) after Mycah was killed - not before. And the Hound wasn't there. All he knew was the lies told by Joffrey and Sansa.

You may be right I read this a while back and I could be remembering it wrong. I do remember how proud the Hound was though of having chased down and butchered a small boy.

I do not remember though anything about the way Arya was acting that would make the court think she was lying. The problem at court was Princess Boy a-hole was of course thought to be perfect and would never lie.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Well since this is a fantasy setting and not a modern setting these things happen, lets face it the vast majority of real knights were probably pompus jerks and most were just cold blooded murderers but they seem to be portrayed in modern times as having all sorts of benevolent and superior traits and ideas. Yea many of these characters are unlikable (especially if you just read half of one book) but that is partly because the book doesn't cater to fantasy book misconceptions as to how people in a middle ages type setting would of really had to live. Of course being as you only read half of the first book you really can't comment on books two or three (or one for that matter as you didn't even finish it). No book is liked by everybody, sorry you didn't like it, now back to the actual topic of the thread.

My comment was not aimed at you. I was replying to someone who thought the Hound was "cool".

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Thank you both for giving you're opinions again about how bad this book really is. Besides that noone here asked for them, they aren't at all relevant to the discussion which is taking place here. If the book so deeply disappointed you I would advice you to forget all about it instead of putting more salt in you're own wounds and constantly reply to topics discussing it. Lot's of people like these books and the fact that you don't is by no means justification enough for you to begin trolling every thread opened about it.

-Allanon

To put this nicely.

Go suck a lemon.

I am having a conversation with several people and I do not need your approval to continue posting.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I have developed a rather pathological hatred of the Jaime and Cersei Lannister, their Hound, and Prince Joffrey Baratheon (Lannister, he doesn't deserve his father's name). I want to see all these people die. If Joffrey learns some respect, then I might forgive the spoiled brat.

I was hoping that someone who has already read the book can tell me if Jamie and Cersei, the Hound and Prince Joffrey receive their just deserves? I don't need details. I don't want in-depth spoilers. I just want to know that they pay, preferably with their lives in a gruesome manner.

I'm at the point right now where I wish I could jump into the story and kill them myself. I feel a deep sense of loathing for the above characters, and Martin has written them in such a way that they seem worse than a foul monster.

To reply more directly to your comment this thought does come to mind. Martin disdanes normal writing conventions. His books are full of plot twists and there are few real heroes or villians.

I have not read more than the first half of the first book but I can make one prediction and feel confident. Do not read the series expecting things to be wrapped up nicely ever. Do not expect horrible villians to all get their just desserts. Do not expect heroes to win out against evil.

Those would be too obvious for Martin to use. If you read it building a list of people you hate and reading so that you can see them punished I seriously will expect you to be disapointed. Too many of them will get away with it or never truly pay. Martin wouldnt want to be too typical genre now would he.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

To put this nicely.

Go suck a lemon.

I am having a conversation with several people and I really do not care what you think about my opinion.

wow, that was a lot more nicely than I would have dealt with that.

actually, when someone asks what comes next, talking in general terms about what comes next is perfectly relevant. And if that something is "Martin kicks you in various painful places until you either give up caring or go into cognitive dissonance and say thank you master may I have another" the poor guy who hasn't gotten sucked in yet deserves to know... (one good flame deserves another)

No, so far no one who he listed dies in a way that I could consider being punished for their sins... the deaths or 'punishments' that do occur are anticlimactic and don't gve you the cathartic "take that you bastard" feeling. Its pretty disapointing.

Kahuna burger

 

[Enforcer]

I personally can't understand how a reader doesn't sympathize with (or at least become emotionally invested in) Jon Snow, Danaerys, or Tyrion. If there is a true hero in those books, it's Jon Snow, he's easy to like in my opinion. Seeing Tyrion constantly struggle to find happiness, only to be constantly disappointed makes for a good story as well. And Danaerys is fascinating if only because her chapters give details of cultures that are far different from the pretty standard medieval isle of Westeros...the fact that a teenage girl ends up being a badass conqueror who still tries to rule justly is also pretty good, I think.

No, there aren't any perfect people in the books, but that makes them all seem more human, in my opinion. And yeah, the protagonists get killed off, but that makes things a hell of a lot more realistic than most fantasy series, where the heroes are pretty much invincible--you know they can't lose.

And you're supposed to hate the Hound...only to feel somewhat sorry for him given how he's been treated by his brother and others.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

wow, that was a lot more nicely than I would have dealt with that.

actually, when someone asks what comes next, talking in general terms about what comes next is perfectly relevant. And if that something is "Martin kicks you in various painful places until you either give up caring or go into cognitive dissonance and say thank you master may I have another" the poor guy who hasn't gotten sucked in yet deserves to know... (one good flame deserves another)

No, so far no one who he listed dies in a way that I could consider being punished for their sins... the deaths or 'punishments' that do occur are anticlimactic and don't gve you the cathartic "take that you bastard" feeling. Its pretty disapointing.

Kahuna burger

LOL, and to think I just went and edited my post to be MORE polite. Must be an off day for me.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I personally can't understand how a reader doesn't sympathize with (or at least become emotionally invested in) Jon Snow, Danaerys, or Tyrion. If there is a true hero in those books, it's Jon Snow, he's easy to like in my opinion. Seeing Tyrion constantly struggle to find happiness, only to be constantly disappointed makes for a good story as well. And Danaerys is fascinating if only because her chapters give details of cultures that are far different from the pretty standard medieval isle of Westeros...the fact that a teenage girl ends up being a badass conqueror who still tries to rule justly is also pretty good, I think.

No, there aren't any perfect people in the books, but that makes them all seem more human, in my opinion. And yeah, the protagonists get killed off, but that makes things a hell of a lot more realistic than most fantasy series, where the heroes are pretty much invincible--you know they can't lose.

And you're supposed to hate the Hound...only to feel somewhat sorry for him given how he's been treated by his brother and others.

Yes Jon is a hero. One of out dozens of characters. The dwarf though I have been told does enough bad things to balance his good and thus you never truly like him. As for the girl, she was not that important in the parts that I read so I cannot comment.

Two and a half characters out of dozens though is not much of a trade.