Really? I seem to remember the Hound being involved in the death of a young farmboy who did nothing wrong in the first half of the first book. I could be remembering wrong though.
That is why I hate him. He is a servant to masters I despise and has no conscience or honor. Killing a farmboy. It disgusts me.
About the only complaint I have so far about the first book is one scene that seems a little unnecessary. The one where Daenrys marries the Dothraki and they go off together. The scene was a bit too graphic and the imagery conjured by the words would tittilate a pedophile. The scene didn't add much to the story and seemed gratuitous.
Other than that, Martin has a real way with words. I hope the book is satisfying. If it is just one long character study with no end, I think I will be a little disappointed. Though I guess that is how you keep people coming back for more.
Ditto. I really want to read more about Jaime and am also pulled in quite easy by someone trying "real hard to be the shepherd." If I may steal a great line from another character who was trying to redeem himself in a great film.
I don't see anything in the tale as arbitrary, but rather the logical consequence of previous actions, even if the "good guys" take it in the teeth. For example, I thought the Red Wedding made perfect sense.
PS
Well said. The RW is incredibly hard to read for even this cold hearted SOG and from what I recall reading, hard for the writer to put down on paper. Yet, it was powerful and did make sense within the story. Horrible, but it made sense.
I wouldn't go to a Pro Baseball game and start yelling on a microphone about how much I hated baseball and baseball fans, that's sort of asking for it.
Some people find more enjoyment in hating something than they do in liking something. They can get riled up over things and find some strange purpose in tearing down what other folks like. I never understood the crusader like mentality but it is easily observable.
Personally, Tyrion is one of my favorites because he wants such simple stuff but fate denies him the merciful exile with his whores.
I like the Hound for another reason, he is the soldier who never thinks. He shoots where told and kills what he is told to kill. Nothing personal in it, it is just his job and he won't accept any glorification of that job.
I never did like Catelyn but Arya......I am gonna love reading book 5 when she returns from her "training."
I tend to be fan boyish....sue me. I still like Star Wars.
this thread got long and brutal pretty quickly.
Allow me to jump in and make it longer and even more brutal.
As previously stated, I read these boosk for the first time in July/August
and am currently in the middle of my first re-read.
thats how much i loved them
is this groundbreaking literature? hardly
is it different that most of the fantasy books "we" grew up on? yes.
almost every fantasy book I read growing up was a clone of the Belgariad.
That was my yardstick because that was my favorite series.
You could see the same characters/story/plot devices in almost EVERY series.
Were my reading selections probably extremely limited ? yes.
Does that change anything? no.
So many people my age (30) LOVE the original star wars trilogy because it was NEW to us. the epic-fantasy tale of orphan boy with special powers meets old man, sneaky guy, beautiful princess, big hairy strong guy, and comic relief supporting characters, learns his true power, finds out the bad guy is his dad ("what an insanely ORIGINAL idea," i thought when i was 7) and saves the universe. Sure we all realize now that there was NOTHING original about the story but try convincing 7-year old me. What made Empire Strikes Back such a great movie? The bad guys won, there was no happy ending. Another thing I had never seen before. I loved it. And even today, it BARELY happens.
Song of Ice and Fire is different than what "we're" used to, and thats why we like it. I've read "different" or "edgy" just for the sake of being edgy and this ISN'T it. I really wish the nay-sayers can point out the particular edgy for edgys sake scenes, or the suspension of disbelief plot twists because everything reads pretty reactionary to me. Something happens, which causes something else to happen. Thats it. The Merovingian would love it.
When I look at A Song of Ice and Fire, I don't see a bunch of evil characters who are "getting away unscathed"
First off, the WHOLE POINT of these books is to show that there is TWO SIDES to every story. THAT is your moral lesson. What looks like evil from the Stark side . doesnt look evil from the Lannister side. Please note how everyone hated Jaime until he got his own POV...then he became the hero seeking redemption that many are rooting for. He hasnt changed since page one of Game of Thrones, you're just getting to see him from HIS point of view. I can't wait till Cersei gets her POV so everyone can decide she's not so bad too.
And secondly, THE SERIES ISNT OVER, by series end, many of the bad guys will either be redeemed or dead. I think.
Jaime
throws a boy from a roof, but get a POV and becomes redeemable.
Arya
kills people in cold blood (or gives the commands too) and is one of the "heroes"
Jon Snow who is universally acclaimed as the ONLY REAL HERO in these books,
abandons the woman he loves for his "duty" and indirectly causes her death, but is considered a hero because he is a POV character. Personally, I think he's MORE of a scum because he thinks he's so honorable and will betray those he loves for "duty" then someone who would do the reverse. You know nothing, Jon Snow and I really hope your death is messy.
Tyrion
had done NOTHING wrong at all up until the very end of book 3, and people still act defensive when suggesting they like him , because his last name is Lannister so he must be evil. (like all orcs and goblins? sigh)
IT amazes me how people are always so drawn directly to the POV characters, like being inside their heads makes them better people or something.
As for Sandor killing a farmboy and being proud of it...
1> you saw his smugness FROM NED'S POV... Ned is an overly pompous "honorable" man who always pre-judged people by their last name and often cut off his hand to spite his face. Basically, Ned is an idiot, and his opinion is worthless (see Mormont, Jorah) Don't pretend Ned is "good" either, the series STARTS with him beheading a defenseless man for a crime that we know ISN'T true. (or at least, not without a VERY good reason)
2> Sandor has a problem with knights and lords and all the political nonsense. He is the player in this game who DOESNT WANT TO PLAY THE GAME BY THE RULES. In his view, when you play the game of thrones, you win, you die, or you bide your time playing by the bogus rules until you can flip over the table and play a different game by your own rules. Every puppet-master and manipulator in this series plays by the rules. Every knight follows orders. Every pawn whimpers miserably as they are forced to play the game. Sandor is the wild card.
3> Should he kill the boy who the prince he defends says attacked him? Should he listen to the young girl who swears its not true? He's seen the hypocrisy that is the high-born of Westeros rationalizing their actions and calling it morality. He has come to the ultimate truth that if morality is nothing but rationalizing your actions, then his actions dont matter. Sandor's first rule is "Life is cruel" and he probably thinks he's done the kid a favor.
4> Most importantly, we still dont know what really happened. Idiot Ned assumes that Sandor ran down the defensless boy, and Sandor says nothing to change his mind, but since we never saw the scene, we cant really say.
My long and tedious thought porcess summed up: Compared to what the rest of the world is doing, this guy is a saint. He's possibly guilty of the death of ONE innocent under orders. Otherwise his record is clean. He doesnt have any stupid "principles" This is the hero youre looking for.
I read comic books, I love the idea of a HERO. But, I must admit, I do prefer when my heroes are grounded in the real world instead of being perfect.
(Also know as Marvel rules, DC drools)
Does A Song of Ice and Fire have too many gray characters? Maybe, but this a "real world" story.
I don't know about you but I don't know any innocent real world heroes in my life. Every single person I know has lied, cheated and stolen. Usually rationalized as "white lies", "everyone cheats on their taxes" and "downloading off the internet isnt stealing because the big companies are ripping us off" but sometimes in other less "harmless" ways.
In the modern world, the average person has become civilized enough to not kill other people (depending on which side of the abortion debate you take, but we're NOT getting into that) but the average person is nowhere near a hero.
I've never known a fireman personally, but every cop I've ever known personally makes me wonder if they really give these psychopaths a mental health test before giving them a gun. NOT heroes in my book.
I've seem some people give to a charity when theyre guilty, or take care of stray kittens if theyre cute, but I know NO heroes.
If its good enough for my real life, its good enough for my books.
The "fun, escapist entertainment" part? ALL THE COOL, WITTY DIALOGUE.
George RR Martin writes the best trash-talk, and I want to play fantasy-sports with him.
Ok I'm off to bed, can't wait to see the responses tomorrow
A hero doesn't mean perfect. It's not bad to have a few literary ideals like Sir Galahad, Captain America, or Superman, but they certainly aren't the average hero.
I currently find Martin interesting because of the way he writes. His characters aren't particularly new if you read alot nor is his plot. That doesn't matter, because almost everything has been done anyhow and has been for years. I find the story entertaining and that is what keeps me reading.
As far as warning somebody off the books, if you got through the first one and liked it then chances are you will keep liking it, but who am I to say yes or no, if you don't like it then stop reading it, that only makes sense, there is only one way to know for sure and that's for somebody to read it themselves and make up their own mind. People have to make up their own minds on whether they like any book or not.
you have me confused with someone else. I've read all three books so far, with the exception of only skimming the last third or so of the last one. Your first statement did not work for me...
And if I went to a forum generally devoted to all sports with known argumentative people and expected to be able to talk about baseball without any naysayers piping up, I would be... unrealistic, shall we say. A thread about ice and fire is a thread about ice and fire, I don't need to start one only for my own opinion....
I've resisted doing this, but I am finally giving in and defending KB and DocM. Personally, SoIaF is one of my favorite works of literature. Consider me a Martin Fanboy.
But KB and DocM are not just bashing the series, they are making reasoned arguments for their positions and, perhaps most importantly, their answers are highly on-topic to the questions posed by Cetavian, the thread-starter:
Celtavian said:
I was hoping that someone who has already read the book can tell me if Jamie and Cersei, the Hound and Prince Joffrey receive their just deserves? I don't need details. I don't want in-depth spoilers. I just want to know that they pay, preferably with their lives in a gruesome manner.
I'm at the point right now where I wish I could jump into the story and kill them myself. I feel a deep sense of loathing for the above characters, and Martin has written them in such a way that they seem worse than a foul monster.
From this, I get that Celtavian is still hoping that the series will give in to convention, that the "bad guys" will "get what they deserve". He is very emotionally invested in this hope, which shows how much he is enjoying the series.
But KB and DocM are just trying to warn him that, at least from what we have seen so far, he is not going to get what he wants from Martin. It sounds like KB in particular was in a similar situation, from the standpoint that she was emotionally invested in liking some of the good characters. And she was very disappointed to see their fates. She has even said that she wishes someone had warned her before she devoted so much time and energy to the series.
So there you go, Celtavian. The answers to your question is, for the most part: No. From what we have seen so far in the series, the "bad guys" often win, and the "good guys" often lose. And in Martin's world, to lose is usually to die, horribly. For this, and other, valid reasons, some people do not like the series. However, some of us continue to enjoy it, and yearn for more.
But I am afraid that if you decide to continue reading for the purpose of witnessing the powers of good winning all, and living happily ever after, and the powers of evil ending up dead and/or suffering, then you are making a mistake. Read the series because you like it, hate the characters you want to hate and love the ones you want to love. But don't become too emotionally invested in the fates of either, or it may ruin you enjoyment of an excellent work.
Well you haven't read 5/6th of the story (of which he is a major part of) either. I got nothing against you or Kahuna's thoughts on the books, it's fine not to like them, but maybe you should start your own thread to discuss the weaknesses in the story intead of trolling for a fight by insulting people who like the books here. Gee if there was a thread on the storyline of ET and I just popped in to say "I hate that stinking movie, I didn't even finish watching it" wouldn't that be considered a little rude? I mean you have only read 1/6th of the written work and you are here telling people who have read the whole 3 books they are wrong about anything? I'm sure a thread on the weakpoints of this series would get a lot of hits and would generate lots of responses and that's where your post should be, this was a thread talking about certain characters futures later in the series (which you haven't read).
Yes I'm a little touchy here I get tired of the irrelevant, "oh that series sucks" post not to mention the vieled insults to people who actually enjoy the books.
Insult people who like the story? I merely pointed out that the "cool" character he liked was a murderer who enjoyed the fact that he ran down a poor defenseless peasant boy.
So I guess not only are you touchy you are also too stupid to understand simple english if you thought my simple statement of fact was an insult.
