Song of Ice and Fire Question...

[ASH]

Doc, please stop! I am sick of the arrogant tone I am getting from you. Fine, I am stupid, Fine I have no real opinion and am unjustified in any that I have. Get over it dude.

Oh, and your the only one I disagreed with; Kahuna Burger did not like the books and I was neither a troll or insultive to him, and in fact understood the reasons why he disliked them.

I am sorry if you feel I insulted you, I respect peoples opinions, I disagree with yours.

I know, I am failing at ignoring you!

 

[KnowTheToe]

My take on reading the 3 "Ice and Fire" books so far:



3. Like Jordan, Martin really wants this series to be as long as possible. He needs to constantly bring in new characters in his stories to replace the people he kills off. If he were still working only with characters introduced in the first book, Book 4 would be about 5-6 guys standing around in separate graveyards with nothing to say. Actually, he hasn't done the "Jordan crime" yet, but Martin has yet to show signs that he won't.

4. Littlefinger is a fink.

This is my worry. I really enjoyed the first 3 books of Jordans.

4. yes he is.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Here's a good rule for whether or not you should post to a thread. If you're going to add nothing positive to the development of a thread, then don't post.

In light of that, I expect that any discussion of Doc's posts, and, I suspect, any further input by Doc, should cease here.

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

3. Like Jordan, Martin really wants this series to be as long as possible. He needs to constantly bring in new characters in his stories to replace the people he kills off. If he were still working only with characters introduced in the first book, Book 4 would be about 5-6 guys standing around in separate graveyards with nothing to say. Actually, he hasn't done the "Jordan crime" yet, but Martin has yet to show signs that he won't.

4. Littlefinger is a fink.

Concerning #3- Martin has publicly stated that he does not wish ASoIaF become another WoT (a series that will never end). He wants the series to be no more then 6 books and even has titles for them. But...

He was planning in a 5 year gap in the story between A Storm of Swords (ASOS) and A Dance with Dragons (ADWD). The 5 years were going to be covered in flashbacks but as he was writing it wasn't working out for him plus he discovered that he had one more story to tell so he scrapped what he had and started a book name A Feast for Crows (AFFC). This is why it is taking so long for it to come out. It seems that he worked on a book for over a year and then started over. The other titles in the series were to be A Time for Woves and The Winds of Winter though I don't remember the order they were supposed to be.

The next tenative date for AFFC is April, 2004 (this is on my computer at work-the same that had Aug 2003 and April 2003 ) but I seriously doubt it. My prediction is August, 2004. See his website for his "Progress" Report near the bottom of the first page to see how much more he has to work on it, then the editorial process... rewrites... ect (hopefully a lot of this has been done on what he's completed so far). I think that he'll finish it by the end of the year and what hasn't been edited will be over Jan, Feb, & March and published in Britain in March or April and here in the US in August just to give you my thought process.

I'm really looking forward to this book and I'm hoping that I'm wrong and it will be out sooner then I think.
*hopes and prays it will in fact be out before Aug, 2004*

Here's the link to his website: www.GeorgeRRMartin.com

I also think that the series will be 7 books since he has the same story to tell and had to add some to it (thus AFFC). I don't see how he can keep it 6 books. Furthermore 7 is a significant number in the series and would be fitting IMO.

Concerning #4: House Baelish's words should be "Be a Player, Not a Pawn" and he will get what is "rightfully" his. And I'm looking forward to that too.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Here's a good rule for whether or not you should post to a thread. If you're going to add nothing positive to the development of a thread, then don't post.

In light of that, I expect that any discussion of Doc's posts, and, I suspect, any further input by Doc, should cease here.

So we are back to only fanboy wanking. Gee I tought you had more backbone then that Dink. Yeah right.

At no point was this thread supposed to be a gushing of only the positive aspects of the book. That is what the fanboys have made it. Unlike the fanboys I have no problem with the opinions of others. They like the books I do not. I stated my reason why and I was attacked for them by the fanboys. I thought this was a discussion forum not your grandmothers dinner table where the "if you have nothing nice to say then dont say anything at all" applies.

With this in mind maybe we should do some more thread Gestapo actions. All threads where someone says something negative about 3.5 should be stopped, they might upset 3.5 fanboys. All reviews that do not give a 5 should be removed, they might upset that products fanboys.

Why not just be to the point Dink. Just post it at the top of ENWorld. If your not going to gush about a product then you cannot post about it.

The really pathetic part is this all started because someone thought the Hound was a cool character and I merely pointed out that he murdered a small defenseless serf boy. I didn't even tell them that I found it sad that he liked a cold blooded murderer. I just pointed out a fact that the author of that post must have forgotten when he stated the Hound had pretty much not done anything wrong in the books.

But please do not let me interrupt. Go on with your wanking.

 

[takyris]

Aaaaaaaand ignoring DocM.

Okay, at this point, my situation, timewise, is that I'm okay with whenever the next book comes out, but he'd better get the one after that cranked out right quick. The book he's currently working on allegedly took so long because of the change in the nature of the book -- and yeah, I can see that, I can empathize, if your five-years-pass bit went from backstory at the beginning of book four to a full book 3.5. But now that that's taken care of (or rather, once it's taken care of), I really hope that he can get back on a good tight schedule.

My feelings on the Hound were roughly similar to what others have expressed. I hated him and wanted him to die painfully -- and then I saw that he did have some kind of sense of honor, which made me even more disgusted with him -- I'd almost prefer somebody who kills little boys for his own enjoyment to someone who will unhesitatingly do it when ordered by a superior, if only because as a reader, it's easier for me to totally write off the former.

Spoiler

Watching him break down completely at the end of the third book shows a growth by his character -- he begins to show remorse, he hates himself, and he's utterly breaking down as his primary allegiance -- to the King and commander -- no longer exists, and he has to face the things he did. That was fascinating, and might well make him redeemable. The fact is, he was ordered to do what he did, and he seemed to believe that what he was doing was right at the time, even if it was cruel. Having to actually face what he is was a nice pathetic gruesome little ending for him, with Arya even refusing to kill him.

I did like that. I'm tired of reading nothing but books where the bad guy redeems himself by dying in some sacrificial way. It's too easy. It's fine in some situations, but really, people don't always have the easy option of just dying instead of committing to change and accepting the consequences of their actions. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the Hound becomes -- if he latches onto somebody else as a new master, if he becomes some sort of grim vigilante to try and make up for his past, or if he just wanders around trying to fend for himself and kill anyone who crosses his path. It's an interesting possibility.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Here's a good rule for whether or not you should post to a thread. If you're going to add nothing positive to the development of a thread, then don't post.

In light of that, I expect that any discussion of Doc's posts, and, I suspect, any further input by Doc, should cease here.

It sounds like a theoretical good rule, but certainly no one ever told hong... or half the denzins of enworld. And in light of that being completely outside the actual expectations of this forum, I'd say its pretty damn tacky for you to put on your semi mod hat in a rude effort to shut down one side of a fairly tame argument.

Let me be clear - I've been insulted FAR worse than doc's comments with little to no provocation (unless you count having a different opinion) on many an occasion, in threads frequented by mods and never had this little guideline even alluded to. So I'm gonna say the same thing to you that I did to someone earlier, and I don't give a damn if you're a mod. If you want to effect the tone of this board, do it evenly. If you want to enforce one set of standards on topics or posters you like and another on the second class posters and topics you don't care about, I'm gonna have to borrow some of doc's lemons.

Kahuna burger

 

[Pants]

Concerning #3- Martin has publicly stated that he does not wish ASoIaF become another WoT (a series that will never end). He wants the series to be no more then 6 books and even has titles for them. But...

He was planning in a 5 year gap in the story between A Storm of Swords (ASOS) and A Dance with Dragons (ADWD). The 5 years were going to be covered in flashbacks but as he was writing it wasn't working out for him plus he discovered that he had one more story to tell so he scrapped what he had and started a book name A Feast for Crows (AFFC). This is why it is taking so long for it to come out. It seems that he worked on a book for over a year and then started over. The other titles in the series were to be A Time for Woves and The Winds of Winter though I don't remember the order they were supposed to be.

I'm hoping that Martin doesn't fall into the Jordan hole as well, however the more and more that I read about his extensive rewrites of aFfC, I just can't help but getting more and more worried.
During my recent reread of A Clash of Kings I noticed that on the front cover that A Storm of Swords was originally supposed to be A Dance with Dragons. A Feast for Crows was also supposed to be a Dance with Dragons. I just hope that aDwD doesn't get pushed back AGAIN.

 

[takyris]

That's a minor peeve of mine -- the trend in fantasy toward the series. Editors are actually telling authors to make things longer, into more books, because not only will it bring in more money, but it will generate more sales for each book. The average fantasy reader, by voting-with-dollar statistics, wants enormous endless epics instead of standalone books. So really, we have nobody to blame but ourselves when authors get pushed into these kinds of decisions.

 

[Mercule]

That's a minor peeve of mine -- the trend in fantasy toward the series. Editors are actually telling authors to make things longer, into more books, because not only will it bring in more money, but it will generate more sales for each book. The average fantasy reader, by voting-with-dollar statistics, wants enormous endless epics instead of standalone books. So really, we have nobody to blame but ourselves when authors get pushed into these kinds of decisions.

Guilty. I do much prefer a three-five book series than a single stand-alone novel. Four really seems to be optimal for what entertains me and keeps me interested.

Martin's work is good, but it doesn't really draw me in enough to keep me hungry for a long series. The only reason I've made it through what he's written so far has nothing to do with it being a series. It's more that I've read his work and can expect to be entertained by another of his books.

Jordan had me hungry after the first three books. It's only been the last couple where I've realized that I've gorged myself to the point of vomitting.

I guess when you get right down to it, I want a story that has good enough characters and plot that I want more than a little of them. Then I want enough of them, but I want them to go before they overstay their welcome.

So far, the best series in terms of this, IMHO, is Dave Duncan's A Handful of Men. Maybe not for everyone's taste, but I definitely enjoyed it.

About the only character I've seen yet that I could stand an almost endless story about is Karl Cullinane, and Rosenberg had the good sense to kill him off, messily, before I changed my mind.