Sorceor spellselection

I'm in the see invis camp for the reason thanee mentioned surprise. Combined with the metafeat that lengthens spell ranges, it can really rock v those annoying flying/hasted/improved invis foes at 400+ feat this spell is almost always up in my games.

Shield, one combat hah, didn't your moma tell you to take persistent spell. One fo the best uses of a 5th level slot that I know of. Me I virtually ignore the spell focus feats unless I was shooting for archmage. I stack up on metamagic. Full round actions don't hinder me much at all, so I think sorcerers are the kings of metamagic(unless you use psions).

Needed spells for me normal invisibility, yes improved has it's advantages(so I'll take it as well), but turning the entitre party invis for along duration rules. Levitate, great heavy lifitng utility spell. Fabricate, possibly the greatest utility spell ever invented.
 

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bitbug said:
I don't see how "subdual fire" differs from "fire" for the purpose of elemental resistance.

From Tome and Blood p. 42, "For example, a subdual Fireball spell works in the usual way but the subdual fireball deals subdual damage instead of fire damage." The damage type isn't "subdual fire" but subdual. This means that trolls, undead, imps, and other regenerators would be immune to the subdual fireball but that fire elementals would not be.

bitbug said:

That's the real weakness of Glitterdust: you don't want to use it when said invisible foe is in melee with the rest of your party lest it blind your party. You could Sculpt Glitterdust, which fixes that weakness. I was primarily thinking of Glitterdust as a substitute for the lack of Mass See Invisibility, with a bonus blindness effect, rather than a primary offensive spell.

I hadn't thought of sculpting glitterdust. A cone effect glitterdust or a 20' radius burst would be competitive with fireball and lightning bolt as an offensive spell. The cone would also make targetting an invisible creature a lot easier. The 10' cubes option would help with targetting foes in melee with the group as well.

On other notes: Blindness-it's primary use is for melee oriented folks who cast and wear armor. It's one of the few verbal only spells. Too bad it's a fort save which makes is pretty useless against the fighter/mage's melee opponents. It's very good against arcane casters or rogues though. . . .

Shield-Shield is excellent with Persistent Spell. However, even by itself it's worth having. Even at high levels, +7 to AC and immunity to magic missiles is very valuable. However, at high levels, a sorceror can afford to extend the Shield spell as well. For the cost of a 5th level slot, a 12th level sorceror's quad-extended shield would last almost an hour--the duration of several combats and possibly the duration of an adventure if the group is in pursuit mode rather than investigation mode.

On Persistent Spell: IMHO this is a better feat for a wizard than for a sorceror. It's excellent with Shield and Expeditious Retreat. Other than those, however, its primary use would be for detection spells: Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility, Detect Secret Doors (worthwhile even if you have a rogue in the party since the rogue has to actively search unless he's an elf). At 15th level, a wizard or sorceror could make blink persistent, but persistent blinking would be rather annoying. On the whole, it seems that a lot of the spells persistent spell is useful for are marginal choices for a sorceror.
 

For what it's worth, I'm with the See Invisibility over Glitterdust camp. This spell has saved my life. My sorcerer was the target of a hit by a well-equipped albeit low-level rogue in the middle of a street. Had it not been for See Invisibility, I would never have spotted him. Couldn't have done it with Glitterdust...
It is far better for you to see the creature; then you can do something about it (and a sorcerer should be able to do _something_ about any situation). If you really want the party to see it, get a couple scrolls of Glitterdust, and whip them out when necessary. The rest of the time, you're better off with See Invis (better range, duration, etc). Remember: the part about outlining invisible things has no saving throw.


For the original poster, some guidelines to creating a sorcerer's spell list:

Heed the advice on this thread. I won't repeat it all, but generally remember the stuff about spells that can be replaced by items/scrolls/wands or become redundant. Zhure, I think, was right on target.


Now, a good way to build a strong list is to sit down (with a few hours to burn) and read the entire list of summarized Sorcerer/Wizard spells (the one on page 168 of the PHB). Read the short descriptions of the spells, and if one sounds interesting, go read its entire description. As you do this, write down spells that are good at each level. When you get to the end of this, start cutting spells out. With a sorcerer, you want one spell for each situation at least, but no more is needed (what I aim for is to have at least one thing to do in every situation, then do it over and over again if there is nothing else).
Keep some buff/defensive spells, some offense, and a little utility in levels 1 and 2. For offensive spells, you'll want to keep an eye on saving throw types: you need at least one or two ways to hit fortitude, reflex and will saves, and some spells with no save at all (I recommend Enervation and Maze). Then just do the combos you like, see what lower/higher level versions of spells you want, (Haste vs Mass Haste, Dispel vs Greater Dispel, etc). When your list is done, you might want to post on the boards so people can see if it is lacking something and make suggestions.



Some good spells not to overlook:
Eyebite - this is a beauty. Will and Fort saves in a Transmutation (great school to Spell Focus IMO). Saves you Charm Monster, and you can Sleep at higher levels.
Ghostform - this spell from Tome and Blood seems tailor-made for sorcerers. One of the ultimate defense spells, only at level 5.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance - see what's on the other side of the door without risking your head. Unfortunately, I never seem to have enough room for this spell. A pity, really, as it is wonderful.
Slow - not an area attack: you actually get to pick the targets. great vs a group of fighter-types
Wall of ______ - ever caster needs some sort of Wall spell. Personally, I favour Wall of Force
Illusions - take at least one, if possible a more powerful one. With a little imagination, it'll come in very handy


On the Fireball vs Lightning Bolt issue: I vote for LB, from personal experience. LB has variable-width, and a lot of times you can't cast FB. And really, how many times do you want to blast things at Long range? I usually like to see what it is, maybe try to reason with it...



Anyway, good luck, and have fun. Sorcerers are great!
 

More selection tips

Feats can also dictate spell selection. Chain Spell is, in my mind, one of the best feats out there. Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Reduce, Enervation, and Dispel Magic can all be Chained by mid-level spellcasters. As offensive spells with no saving throw, Enervation and Dispel Magic work well with Chain while ignoring its weakness: +4 saves for secondary targets. For sorcerors, they don't need to make the hard decision of Haste vs Mass Haste. Spells/day are also conserved, as is total casting time, for Chained utility spells.
 

Gilrion said:

It is far better for you to see the creature; then you can do something about it (and a sorcerer should be able to do _something_ about any situation). If you really want the party to see it, get a couple scrolls of Glitterdust, and whip them out when necessary.
I'm not unsympathetic to that view, but it ignores two things IMO. One, Glitterdust is a dual-use spell, having both offensive and defensive uses. This is important for a sorceror, which his limited spells known. Second, Glitterdust lasts 1 round/level, while See Invisibility lasts 10 minutes/level. Glitterdust scrolls are expensive if they have useful duration (say, 8-12 rounds). See Invisibility scrolls are cheap, and the base scroll lasts 30 minutes.
 

How about See Invisibility AND Glitterdust?

Maybe some other spell can be dropped?
Blindness maybe?

IMHO See Invisibility is one of the few absolute must-haves for a Wizard/Sorcerer.

Relying on scrolls for such an important spell? I would not like that. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

nice idea

Thanee said:
How about See Invisibility AND Glitterdust?

Maybe some other spell can be dropped?
Blindness maybe?
That argument has merit. I like it. Blindness is somewhat redundant with Glitterdust.
 


Re: Extra Spell?

bitbug said:
How about Extra Spell for a sorceror? What do the masses think?

Good feat. Sometimes really necessary. But make sure you got Silent spell and Still spell first.

Those are lifesavers.
 

Especially to get more 2nd or 3rd level spells, Extra Spell sounds like a good idea.

I surely would want to take the feat, but the problem is, there are so many good feats.

With a good selection one might do ok even without Extra Spell, so I'd wage some Metamagic feats, (Greater) Spell Focus and Improved Initiative higher in priority.

Bye
Thanee
 

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