D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

[TwoSix]

So people rampantly disagreeing can still mean there is clear conventional wisdom? It literally means that there is a generally accepted theory or belief. That is pretty much a consensus - a general agreement between people.

You don't anywhere near consensus to have a conventional wisdom. A stance held by the majority of concerned parties is enough to establish a CW.

All classes in 5E are intended to have limitations. Limitations only matter if they are felt. You feel the limited spell list of the sorcerer a lot. It requires players to be a bit inventive in how they use their spells. That is a feature, not a bug, of the sorcerer. While sorcerer remains a great class to multiclass into for 3 levels to steal the metamagic feats, it is also a great class to play all the way through.

I agree, the limited list of the sorcerer is my favorite aspect of the class. Any changes to them I would see as a horizontal expansion, not a change to their spell mechanics.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm not saying the sorcerer needs spell points...

...but it needs spell points.

The sorcerer suffers from being both uninteresting compared to the warlock/wizard/bard and one of the weaker classes overall. Not a good combination.

Spell points takes care of the first in spades.

 

[Marandahir]

I'm not saying the sorcerer needs spell points...

...but it needs spell points.

The sorcerer suffers from being both uninteresting compared to the warlock/wizard/bard and one of the weaker classes overall. Not a good combination.

Spell points takes care of the first in spades.

I've seen tweaks that switch to spell points and add Sorcery Points to make it one big pool of resources, to spend either to cast more spells, or to make fewer spells more cool.

There's various opinions on how to make this balanced right, but I'm a big fan of the tweak, and it's intuitive in a way that having two point pools to do magicky stuff with isn't.

It's also a great model for the Psion, which a few more tweaks (such as skill & spell list switch, plus Cha->Int) accomplishes pretty effectively.

 

[J-H]

What I've come up with as a suggested houserule is this:

Sorcerers get 2 thematically appropriate spells known added to their list automatically, at spell levels 1 & 3. For Dragon sorcerers, this would be Chromatic Orb (1) and either Fear or Fly (3). For Storm Sorcerers, this would be Thunderwave (1) and either Lightning Bolt or Sleet Storm or Thunder Step or Call Lightning. Sorcerers gain additional sorcery points equal to their proficiency bonus. Consider a better capstone if you hit 20.

 

[Redwizard007]

What I've come up with as a suggested houserule is this:

Sorcerers get 2 thematically appropriate spells known added to their list automatically, at spell levels 1 & 3. For Dragon sorcerers, this would be Chromatic Orb (1) and either Fear or Fly (3). For Storm Sorcerers, this would be Thunderwave (1) and either Lightning Bolt or Sleet Storm or Thunder Step or Call Lightning. Sorcerers gain additional sorcery points equal to their proficiency bonus. Consider a better capstone if you hit 20.

If your issue is number of spels known this certainly helps. Have you expanded it out to the other sub-classes yet?

 

[Todd Roybark]

This is another good example of a niche situation being presented as a norm to try and make Sorcerer metamagic not look weak

‘Niche’ is relative to the campaign. In a Three Musketeers style campaign, where slaying nobles will get you ‘High Justice’, (and not in the good Cheech and Chong way), non lethal options may be greatly appreciated, especially when fighting Evil Count Tyrone Rugon.

Is this ‘Niche’?......probably in the grand scheme of all games.

My personal experience is all campaigns have idiosyncratic elements that encourage ‘niche’ play.

If Character optimization is important to one, then a Warlock is going to be played only one way.

A player that decides to Min/Max more unusual options then “EB Pew-Pewness”, has more to work with in the Sorcerer class. That is my opinion at least.

 

[Guest 6801328]

‘Niche’ is relative to the campaign. In a Three Musketeers style campaign, where slaying nobles will get you ‘High Justice’, (and not in the good Cheech and Chong way), non lethal options may be greatly appreciated, especially when fighting Evil Count Tyrone Rugon.

Is this ‘Niche’?......probably in the grand scheme of all games.

My personal experience is all campaigns have idiosyncratic elements that encourage ‘niche’ play.

If Character optimization is important to one, then a Warlock is going to be played only one way.

A player that decides to Min/Max more unusual options then “EB Pew-Pewness”, has more to work with in the Sorcerer class. That is my opinion at least.

Wait, you mean different people play the game in different ways? And that's....that's....OK?

Heretic.

Burn him.

 

[Marandahir]

What I've come up with as a suggested houserule is this:

Sorcerers get 2 thematically appropriate spells known added to their list automatically, at spell levels 1 & 3. For Dragon sorcerers, this would be Chromatic Orb (1) and either Fear or Fly (3). For Storm Sorcerers, this would be Thunderwave (1) and either Lightning Bolt or Sleet Storm or Thunder Step or Call Lightning. Sorcerers gain additional sorcery points equal to their proficiency bonus. Consider a better capstone if you hit 20.

How would you say this plays with the power balance of Divine Soul and Shadow Magic Sorcerers, who gain bonus spells as part of their subclass features? Would you give those subclasses additional bonus spells or are you suggesting that Dragon and Storm Sorcerers are underpowered by comparison?

How would you feel about all Sorcerer subclasses getting a set of additional spell list spells like some of the other classes do? For example, I'm of a mind to grant such a list to all Ranger subclasses, but I'm worried if that would underpower the ones that already got the additional spells. I personally feel that magical classes in general do better if their subclasses can embody a magical theme.

Perhaps such work would require giving bonus goodies to every (or almost every) class to balance out the power discrepancy. Doing so of course would require tweaks to what a CR means, too…

 

[Guest 6801328]

What I've come up with as a suggested houserule is this:

Sorcerers get 2 thematically appropriate spells known added to their list automatically, at spell levels 1 & 3. For Dragon sorcerers, this would be Chromatic Orb (1) and either Fear or Fly (3). For Storm Sorcerers, this would be Thunderwave (1) and either Lightning Bolt or Sleet Storm or Thunder Step or Call Lightning. Sorcerers gain additional sorcery points equal to their proficiency bonus. Consider a better capstone if you hit 20.

I like the Shadow sorcerer feature that they get Darkness as a bonus spell, and they can either cast it using a slot or with 2 sorcery points. Since normally you would have to convert 3 sorcery points to get a 2nd-level slot, it effectively discounts Darkness.

So a combination of features that I could get behind would be:

• Thematically appropriate bonus spells per sub-class (or a choice, in the case of something like Draconic).
• You can cast those bonus spells using sorcery points instead of slots.
• More sorcery points, or same number on a short rest, but then fewer normal slots.

I'd want the numbers to work out so that if you only cast regular (non-bonus) spells you are about where you are now, but the more bonus spells you use the further ahead you get.

By the way, as long as we're tweaking Sorcerer, I would adjust Wild Magic Surge (of Wild Magic subclass) so that whenever you don't get a wild surge, the threshold (where d20 <= threshold causes surge) increases by 1, resetting back to 1 whenever you do get a surge.

 

[J-H]

How would you say this plays with the power balance of Divine Soul and Shadow Magic Sorcerers, who gain bonus spells as part of their subclass features? Would you give those subclasses additional bonus spells or are you suggesting that Dragon and Storm Sorcerers are underpowered by comparison?

I would give a couple of bonus spells known to all sorc subclasses. Those were just examples.