D&D 5E Sorcerer class improvement house rule

[FrogReaver]

Not sure we're going to see eye to eye on this one.

To me metamagic is nice, but it's not Spells Known * 1.5, especially because you only get 2 metamagic options from 3rd to 10th level (which is is the zone most games die).

Most metamagic are great, but they are usually limited to a couple of spells known per option. Quicken is really the only one that is pretty much always useful. And Sorcery points never keep up with daily needs for my experience. I'm always burning through them at a prodigious rate. Then I have to decide if I want to just not have metamagic the rest of the day or burn spell slots to get some back. Unlike a wizard who can get back 1/2 their burned slots 1/Long Rest. That is so many sorcery points worth of casting ability that they just get back.

Yes, a sorcerer has more cantrips. But all the sorcerer has without being really creative or multiclassing, etc is spells. Bard's have a bunch a bunch of other things going on on top of knowing more spells than a sorcerer. The Warlock also has a bunch of other options depending on which Patron/Pact Boon they choose + Invocations.

My point is that by keeping them to the least spells known of any of the Charisma classes, they are overly narrow in their options. Not only do Bards and Warlocks KNOW more spells, they also have more things they can do besides just spells with all their other class features and options.

A sorcerer basically casts spells. So they should have more spells known and flexibility than the other Charisma-based caster options. Not near a Wizard's level obviously as that is the thing. But Sorcerer's are inadequate IMO in their spells known.

Now I know your full of it. You just lost credibility. Warlocks suck as a caster. That you are even trying to compare a sorcerers casting to a warlocks tells me all I need to know.

 

[Salthorae]

Now I know your full of it. You just lost credibility. Warlocks suck as a caster. That you are even trying to compare a sorcerers casting to a warlocks tells me all I need to know.

Your opinions wound me, gasp.

Plus, I feel like you just reinforced my position not undermined it!

If a Warlock sucks as a caster, why the heck do they know more spells than a Sorcerer?

 

[FrogReaver]

Again, no sorcerer is ever going to match spells with a wizard because they don't have Ritual Casting. I guess you missed that part of my last post.

I love rituals. Give me the option of choosing metamagic or ritual casting in my class and I will choose metamagic every time. It's flat out better. Besides, ritual casting can be obtained from level 1 on as a feat. It's a fun feature but it's low entry cost doesn't really make it competitive with metamagic.

 

[FrogReaver]

Your opinions wound me, gasp.

Plus, I feel like you just reinforced my position not undermined it!

If a Warlock sucks as a caster, why the heck do they know more spells than a Sorcerer?

They suck as a caster because lack of spell slots. They could know every spell and would still suck as a caster.

 

[Salthorae]

I love rituals. Give me the option of choosing metamagic or ritual casting in my class and I will choose metamagic every time. It's flat out better. Besides, ritual casting can be obtained from level 1 on as a feat. It's a fun feature but it's low entry cost doesn't really make it competitive with metamagic.

A feat is not a low entry cost in 5e. I would only agree that metamagic is better in a powergame sense to break action economy. That isn't the only framework to look at class features, there are 2 other pillars of play besides combat and metamagic (that most people take) really only shine in combat.

When was the last time someone used metamagic effect in a non-combat pillar situation? Subtle spell is the only one I've ever seen and I've only seen one person take that as an option at level 3 in games I've been a part of (me).

Maybe you could use Distant in non-combat situations, but I've never seen anyone actually take that as a metamagic, because sorcerers really only get two to use for the life of most games.

They suck as a caster because lack of spell slots. They could know every spell and would still suck as a caster.

You do know that every short rest Warlocks get their slots back, right? They only suck as casters if you are only taking 0-1 short rests per game day.

A 3rd level Sorcerer knows 4 spells and has a total of 6 spells slots per day (4x 1st and 2x 2nd). Maybe 7 if they burn sorcery points on another 1st level slot rather than a precious Metamagic.

A 3rd level Warlock knows 4 spells and has a total of 2 spell slots per short rest. If you rest every 2 encounters of a 6 encounter day (base game balance is around that many encounters per day), then a Warlock has 6-8 2nd level spell slots per day.

A 3rd level Warlock who took Pact of the Tome warlock has as many cantrips as a sorcerer, 3 from any class list. Add on Book of Ancient Secrets Invocation and they've got access to every ritual spell in the game, not just the wizard ones. Now they're certainly a better "classic caster" archetype than a sorcerer.

On top of that, a Warlock has the benefits of any of his other class features and Invocations beyond being as good or better than a sorcerer as a spellcaster in terms of total spell casting potential in a day.

Which is part of my WHOLE point. The Sorcerer should be better at magic than a warlock, but they're not. Except they can twin a spell or quicken one a couple to a few times per day. That doesn't make up for their overall inflexibilty in spells known to me.

 

[FrogReaver]

A feat is not a low entry cost in 5e. I would only agree that metamagic is better in a powergame sense to break action economy. That isn't the only framework to look at class features, there are 2 other pillars of play besides combat and metamagic (that most people take) really only shine in combat.

Variant human + ritual caster. Practically no cast at all....

When was the last time someone used metamagic effect in a non-combat pillar situation? Subtle spell is the only one I've ever seen and I've only seen one person take that as an option at level 3 in games I've been a part of (me).

Twin spell is great out of combat. Heightened can be good as well.

You do know that every short rest Warlocks get their slots back, right? They only suck as casters if you are only taking 0-1 short rests per game day.

They still suck. They have no versatility. They use hypnotic pattern or fireball or whatever and almost never use spell slots for anything else because they just don't have enough at any given time.

A 3rd level Sorcerer knows 4 spells and has a total of 6 spells slots per day (4x 1st and 2x 2nd). Maybe 7 if they burn sorcery points on another 1st level slot rather than a precious Metamagic.

A 3rd level Warlock knows 4 spells and has a total of 2 spell slots per short rest. If you rest every 2 encounters of a 6 encounter day (base game balance is around that many encounters per day), then a Warlock has 6-8 2nd level spell slots per day.

Doesn't matter. they never get to use them on anything because they are always saving them for combat. When you only have 2 of something till you rest again that's what ultimately happens. You can't take the risk of not having those for combat.

A 3rd level Warlock who took Pact of the Tome warlock has as many cantrips as a sorcerer, 3 from any class list. Add on Book of Ancient Secrets Invocation and they've got access to every ritual spell in the game, not just the wizard ones. Now they're certainly a better "classic caster" archetype than a sorcerer.

On top of that, a Warlock has the benefits of any of his other class features and Invocations beyond being as good or better than a sorcerer as a spellcaster in terms of total spell casting potential in a day.

invocations suck for out of combat stuff. Trust me, I like the concept of a warlock. I like the concept of short rest recharge casting. But warlocks simply don't have the tools to be as strong of characters as sorcerers, bards or wizards.

Which is part of my WHOLE point. The Sorcerer should be better at magic than a warlock, but they're not. Except they can twin a spell or quicken one a couple of times per day.

There's that credibility thing again - you are still arguing that sorcerers don't far surpass warlocks when it comes to magic. That's a position grounded in pure fantasy.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

3) Sorcery points need to be dedicated to Flexible Casting (as their analogy to Arcane Recovery or Natural Recovery), and not shared with Metamagic.

Wouldn't it be cleaner to do the reverse? Use sorcery points exclusively for metamagic, and then just straight up give them more spell slots like they had in 3E. Then you don't have to add a third resource system to the class.

EDIT: Hell, just give them a lot of extra spell slots and have them spend slots to activate metamagic too. Get the resource system count down to one.

 

[Salthorae]

There's that credibility thing again - you are still arguing that sorcerers don't far surpass warlocks when it comes to magic. That's a position grounded in pure fantasy.

Yep, grounded in 5e D&D! Pure fantasy!

We’re not gonna see Eye 2 Eye on this, so I’m done responding to this particular derailment of the thread.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yep, grounded in 5e D&D! Pure fantasy!

We’re not gonna see Eye 2 Eye on this, so I’m done responding to this particular derailment of the thread.

We are literally talking about whether more spells known would unbalance things in the sorcerers favor. You agreed that in the pure powergamer sense than metamagic is better than ritual casting and so it's just s small step to go beyond that and realize that if metamagic is better for powergaming and if you give the sorcerer just as many spells as the wizard then he's clearly the better class to powergame with. When that happens - whatever change you were making is an admitted obvious imbalance in that classes favor.

 

[Shiroiken]

The base sorcerer is fine. Just like in 3E, where they were introduced, they have less spell selection, but more oomph for their spells. By spending SP, they can either have more spells per day, do extra things with their spells, or some combination of both once they hit 5th level or so. My issue with the sorcerer is in the sub-classes, which vary greatly.

Dragon - the only thing needed to make this better is more spells. Not more spells known, but more elemental spells printed. As is, there's only enough fire spells to make them viable, but by adding more spell options the others will work fine.

Wild - this is actually a really good sub-class, but it's too dependent on the DM to trigger, especially tides of chaos. The other downside is that it is possible, albeit unlikely, to cause a TPK by dropping a fireball on you and your allies at low levels (I suffered this at level 1, and it sucks for everyone). This can be fixed by simply working with your DM.

Storm - this is really bad IMO. Tempestuous Magic and Heart of the Storm both imply the character is meant for melee, which is a TERRIBLE place for them to be with no armor and 1d6 HD. If Tempestuous Magic gave more like 30 feet and Heart of the Storm targeted a single creature within 30 ft, it would be perfectly fine. As is, it's simply a great way to get killed.

Divine - amazing.

Shadow - haven't seen anyone play, but I would think that its abilities are too dependent on the use of SP, which takes away from the base class. I would allow Eyes of the Dark to simply allow you to see through your own cast darkness spell, and reduce the cost of the Hound to 2 SP or limit it to once per long rest.