Sorcerer claws suck for AoOs?
- Thread starter Noumenon
- Start date
There's a case for free actions used even when it's not your turn (speaking, for instance).
A reasonable DM might allow activating them for an Attack of Opportunity, using up a round to do so (counting 2 rounds if you want to keep them active when your turn comes up).
Strict reading of the rules implies that they can't be though. Whether it was intended that way (it takes at least a little time for the claws to get out, so they aren't available for that instant you'd get your AoO), or whether it was simply oversight (since free actions are a bit muddled in concept compared to the rigidly defined swift and immediate actions), who knows.
A reasonable DM might allow activating them for an Attack of Opportunity, using up a round to do so (counting 2 rounds if you want to keep them active when your turn comes up).
Strict reading of the rules implies that they can't be though. Whether it was intended that way (it takes at least a little time for the claws to get out, so they aren't available for that instant you'd get your AoO), or whether it was simply oversight (since free actions are a bit muddled in concept compared to the rigidly defined swift and immediate actions), who knows.
Burn_Boy
First Post
I never used my claws on my Sorcerer (and with a 7 STR why would I?) but a free action is something you can do an unlimited number of time per round, at least by our interpretation, so popping your claws wouldn't take up any of your actions like loading a crossbow or preparing a spell or anything.
tlantl
First Post
Sorcerer claws generally aren't worth the ink wasted on including them in the bloodlines. Why would you be able to make an attack of opportunity with a sheathed weapon? Just like any other weapon, your claws need to be ready to use when you use them. You can't draw a weapon to make an attack of opportunity, so why expect to be able to make an attack with claws you are not wearing when the attack of opportunity is provoked.
You might consider talking with your GM about increasing the duration of your claws if you really want to use them as a melee weapon. As they are written they are basically useless weapons that last four or five rounds a day. I might let a player use them for ten minutes 3 times + his charisma modifier each day. At least you'd be able to start an encounter with them in place. Though why a sorcerer would put himself in a situation where he would have occasion to use his claws in the first place eludes me.
You might consider talking with your GM about increasing the duration of your claws if you really want to use them as a melee weapon. As they are written they are basically useless weapons that last four or five rounds a day. I might let a player use them for ten minutes 3 times + his charisma modifier each day. At least you'd be able to start an encounter with them in place. Though why a sorcerer would put himself in a situation where he would have occasion to use his claws in the first place eludes me.
Sorcerer claws are a cool concept for a non-standard build. When I first saw them, I immediately wanted to build a Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight/Dragon Disciple gish who wades into battle and rends people with his claws.
With the rules as written, that probably only works for an NPC who fights one battle and dies (or escapes and fights no more that day). For a PC, there are not enough rounds to have them available for every combat. Instead, when you get grappled or run out of spells, the PC can look fearsome while he dies instead of looking helpless. I suppose that is something.
The potential problem with just extending the duration by a lot is it encourages a one level dip. If one level of sorcerer lets you have claws whenever you are in combat, that plus access to shield and true strike probably mean many optimized melee builds include one level of sorcerer. With claws and a reach weapon, you would threaten 5' and 10'. A full attack lets you do 2d4 + 2x strength if both claws hit (and no TWF penalties), which is probably better than you would get with a greatsword. You don't really get a downside until you get the third iterative, and even then, +0/+0 will often hit more frequently than +0/-5/-10.
I would probably change the duration to something like 1+cha + 2*level rounds per day. Even with a charisma of 16, that is six rounds at first level, which is more than the number of non-cantrips the sorcerer can cast. By fifth level, we are at 14 rounds a day, which would cover most of the combat. (A barbarian with a similar Con of 16 could only rage for 19 rounds.)
With the rules as written, that probably only works for an NPC who fights one battle and dies (or escapes and fights no more that day). For a PC, there are not enough rounds to have them available for every combat. Instead, when you get grappled or run out of spells, the PC can look fearsome while he dies instead of looking helpless. I suppose that is something.
The potential problem with just extending the duration by a lot is it encourages a one level dip. If one level of sorcerer lets you have claws whenever you are in combat, that plus access to shield and true strike probably mean many optimized melee builds include one level of sorcerer. With claws and a reach weapon, you would threaten 5' and 10'. A full attack lets you do 2d4 + 2x strength if both claws hit (and no TWF penalties), which is probably better than you would get with a greatsword. You don't really get a downside until you get the third iterative, and even then, +0/+0 will often hit more frequently than +0/-5/-10.
I would probably change the duration to something like 1+cha + 2*level rounds per day. Even with a charisma of 16, that is six rounds at first level, which is more than the number of non-cantrips the sorcerer can cast. By fifth level, we are at 14 rounds a day, which would cover most of the combat. (A barbarian with a similar Con of 16 could only rage for 19 rounds.)
I believe the APG has a feat with fairly low prerequisites that lets you make a rend attack. Plus there's a number of "natural weapon" enhancing spells, items and feats.
I don't ever see it as a full sorcerer thing, but as a sorcerer dip, I could see it.
Not sure why it's in rounds though. An alchemist can get claws and a bite (and the claw are at 1d6) when using his mutagens, which last 10 minutes per level. And that's on a class with medium BAB/casting.
Considering how wimpy the claws are (1d4 damage), and how non-melee the sorcerer is, it baffles me why they are limited so much.
Comparatively, the Celestial bloodline has a 30' ranged touch ray attack, that deals 1d4 + 1/2 level in damage. Honestly, it's going to hit more often, and has the utility of healing good people. Really.. this isn't even a contest.
I don't ever see it as a full sorcerer thing, but as a sorcerer dip, I could see it.
Not sure why it's in rounds though. An alchemist can get claws and a bite (and the claw are at 1d6) when using his mutagens, which last 10 minutes per level. And that's on a class with medium BAB/casting.
Considering how wimpy the claws are (1d4 damage), and how non-melee the sorcerer is, it baffles me why they are limited so much.
Comparatively, the Celestial bloodline has a 30' ranged touch ray attack, that deals 1d4 + 1/2 level in damage. Honestly, it's going to hit more often, and has the utility of healing good people. Really.. this isn't even a contest.
pawsplay
Hero
Where does it say you can speak when it's not your turn?
Steel_Wind
Legend
We covered a character build in Episode 007 of the podcast released a few days ago, called the Ice Dragoonm which is designed to use the Ranger Class.Dragon disciple with a dip into Sorceror for this very thing.
The write up on the Ice Dragoon is here. The discussion is on the podcast (links below).
The write up on the Ice Dragoon is here. The discussion is on the podcast (links below).
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Noumenon
First Post
This made me think of a loophole!
If I argue that I haven't used my claws on a round I didn't attack with them, then I could leave them out and have them available for AoOs. That would make them a little better.
I thought the claws would be OK at low levels before I have many spells because it's two attacks, even if they do less damage. My DM's point buy let me put a 16 in Charisma and Strength, and I took Arcane Strike for a feat to add one more damage. I'm not going for the best build, I just like the idea of someone whose magical power is from a source that they don't really understand or control. I took Lawful Good adoptive parents and I'm going to explore my demon heritage later.
Sir, nowhere, sir!
Well, right in the rules for speaking. (Duh.
)Here's the direct quote if you want (in the section on Free actions):
So yeah. No more waiting until your turn to say "ow" after being hit by that fireball or sneak attack!
This statement implies that most other free actions (unless otherwise stated) aren't usable out of turn. So no normally using claws for AoOs, unless the DM is being nice.
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