Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules"

[Stormborn]

Yes, it was #311 ("Arcane Ancestry" p. 33) and you are welcome. There is another one, BTW, that has basically been accepted but isn't on the schedule yet. We will wait and see.

The idea of Spell-like Abilities is growing on me, and I am coming around to your way of thinking.

Some notes on the last post:
I would keep the BAB. If you begin manifesting spell-like powers you probablly aren't going to learn to hit to resolve conflicts, you will cast a spell. (And creative use of even cantrips can go along way.)

I like the idea of the heritage granting class skills, but if you do that you might want to drop the initial skill list down. This isn't a skill use oriented class after all. I would nix Survival, but keep it as an option for some heritages, as well as Knowledge(local). Trust me, you can be pleanty charismatic and not have clue to the world around you.

As for Item Creation Feats: "However, I might be persuaded to add this restriction if you can better explain why only a Sorcerer could not make them but something like a Druid or even an Adept can."

Both Druids and Adepts (theoretically, if they are a kind of backwater, junior league wizard/cleric as the DMG seems to suggest) are part of a tradition that could pass along the knowledge and training needed to craft special items. A Sorcerer is not. Of all the PHB classes, only the Sorcerer doesn't require, or get, any kind of outside guidance. Sure, some specific members of other classes might be self-taught, but they work from a body of knowledge and an accepted idea of how things are done. Each sorcerer accesses power in a unique way, it may not even be possible to imbue items with power the way they manipulate it. (Off the top of my head I don't remember, but can Spell Like Abilites be used in the creation of magic items? Or does it have to be a spell?) However, depending on their heriatge this might be different. A sorcerer from a long line of sorcerers might take up the family practice of sword making, but I think it would be difficult for the average sorcerer to do so. Maybe something you might want to include as a boon in one of the Heritages, or a potential one. Mostly, however, I am playing devils advocate for an extreme interpritation of the sorcerer as unique.

Overall, I like you take on adaptable classes. Have you considered/are you using a d20 Modern-esque approach (Talent Trees)?

 

[Wippit Guud]

Any thought to giving sorcerers a wild-surge effect like 2e Wild Mages? Just leave out the whole reckless dweomer line of thought.

 

[Ferret]

I'd go one step further... those feats you describe from the Dragon are effectively Domain spell lists. Why even make the Sorceror use a feat. Let them pick a 'bloodline' at first level, much like a Cleric picks a domain.

I think this an excellent idea! It would also work well with the above ideas, but it may restrict the characters fluff.

[edit: after reading the entire topic I can agree that heritages would work well, maybe even take adepts into the fold?

 

[Khaalis]

There is another one, BTW, that has basically been accepted but isn't on the schedule yet. We will wait and see.

Congrats on that as well. Always something to be proud of when you actually get your ideas published. I have never had the nerve to even try getting something published in Dragon, but part of that comes from being a survivor of what the old submission process used to be (circa early 80’s).

As for your Dragon #311 article, here is an example of what I did with the ideas in my version of the Sorcerer.

“Sorcerer Ability” option:

Fey Fate (Su): If the Sorcerer is of the Child of Nature heritage and can cast 2nd level spells, they can draw on the power of their heritage and gain a +1 racial bonus to all saving throws. (Dragon #311)

I would keep the BAB. If you begin manifesting spell-like powers you probablly aren't going to learn to hit to resolve conflicts, you will cast a spell. (And creative use of even cantrips can go along way.)

I agree on the BAB. To run another idea by you…
To fulfill the quote “Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.” I am not so convinced that simply increasing HD to d6 from d4 and giving Simple Weapons instead of a Set List of weapons is the option. I do agree that the Median BAB would be too much, but with moving toward the spell-like ability – why not offer the sorcerer minimal protection of granting Light Armor Proficiency? With Light Armor, Simple Weapons and d6 HD – I feel this would reflect the Fluff quote. Thoughts?

I like the idea of the heritage granting class skills, but if you do that you might want to drop the initial skill list down. This isn't a skill use oriented class after all. I would nix Survival, but keep it as an option for some heritages, as well as Knowledge(local). Trust me, you can be pleanty charismatic and not have clue to the world around you.

A few points on this…
I like the idea of customizing the skills by 1 or 2 class skills depending upon the heritage. That’s a definite touch to keep. I agree with Survival and Knowledge (Local) and will relegate Survival to the appropriate heredities.

As for Not being a skill oriented class, this is something I somewhat disagree with. All other “self-taught” or “self-reliant” style classes have a reliance on skills as either the focus of the class or as the secondary support to the class. Those that rely on flexibility in spells still at least have other class abilities and fair skills to fall back on. The Sorcerer doesn’t. Keep in mind that the Sorcerer is already limited to a very tiny number of things they can do with their spells, and the way that the Revision is leaning they will be even more limited into a specific thematic. The more you restrict what they can do with spells, the less the class has to offer. To balance that they need to have some skills to fall back on. Also keep in mind that most classes also have other class abilities to fall back on. What would a Druid do with only their spells and limited skills if they had no Wild Shape, no Nature Sense, no Woodland Stride etc.

(Item Creation Feats)
Both Druids and Adepts (theoretically, if they are a kind of backwater, junior league wizard/cleric as the DMG seems to suggest) are part of a tradition that could pass along the knowledge and training needed to craft special items. A Sorcerer is not. Of all the PHB classes, only the Sorcerer doesn't require, or get, any kind of outside guidance. Sure, some specific members of other classes might be self-taught, but they work from a body of knowledge and an accepted idea of how things are done. Each sorcerer accesses power in a unique way, it may not even be possible to imbue items with power the way they manipulate it. (Off the top of my head I don't remember, but can Spell Like Abilites be used in the creation of magic items? Or does it have to be a spell?) However, depending on their heriatge this might be different. A sorcerer from a long line of sorcerers might take up the family practice of sword making, but I think it would be difficult for the average sorcerer to do so. Maybe something you might want to include as a boon in one of the Heritages, or a potential one. Mostly, however, I am playing devils advocate for an extreme interpritation of the sorcerer as unique.

As for Item Creation, yes spell-like abilities can be used for items as are spells activated/cast from items. My question is how do you change the existing Item Creation system to Ban sorcerers from creating items. Currently very few sorcerers, if any, take item creation feats. They have so few feats they have access to already – that they don’t waste them on Item Creation, especially when its necessary to take metamagic and other related feats just to make the class viable. Also keep in mind that while Druids, Cleric, and even Adepts have tutors to learn from – item creation is not a part of their class. The only way they can attain this ability is through their standard bonus feats but they can still do it. Without editing the base Item Creation rules to say Sorcerers cant do it. If this could be done without a large amount of work or need for suspension of belief I could agree. Otherwise, I think it is safest just to leave them as is – similar to all casters other than Wizards and not make the feats a part of the class.

Overall, I like you take on adaptable classes. Have you considered/are you using a d20 Modern-esque approach (Talent Trees)?

I do not own nor have I had a chance to see the Modern book. So I am not even sure what the Talent Tree is. Can you post a sample?

Any thought to giving sorcerers a wild-surge effect like 2e Wild Mages? Just leave out the whole reckless dweomer line of thought.

I’ve thought about it, but overall, as much as use some ideas of wild magic, I just don’t like the variable casting effects. I don’t like anything that makes the character roll more dice every time they perform an action. Where I still use wild magic is when spells are disrupted or magical items destroyed. Whenever raw magic is released into the ether without form, I use wild magic.

Hope to hear more. Thanks!

 

[Coredump]

You guys seem to be going great with this, and I can't wait to see what you finally come up with.

As a possibility:
What if they had various spell lists, but gained access to them over time.

For example, there are 8 different lists. (based on theme, or geneology, or whatever)

Class...Spell list ONE...........Spell list TWO..........Spell list THREE
level.....by spell level............by spell level............by spell level

1.....3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.......0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0......0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0
2.....5.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.......0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0......0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0
3.....5.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.......0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0......0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0
4.....6.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.......2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0......0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0
5.....6.3.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.......4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0......0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0
6.....7.4.3.2.1.0.0.0.0.......4.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0......2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0
etc. etc.


Now, the number and level of spells is WAY to fast in the example, just used to show the concept. Hope it makes some sense.

.

 

[Khaalis]

You guys seem to be going great with this, and I can't wait to see what you finally come up with.

Thanks. I really do want to create something that could have a mass appeal.

As a possibility:
What if they had various spell lists, but gained access to them over time.
For example, there are 8 different lists. (based on theme, or geneology, or whatever) {snip}

Currently I use a system that allows a Sorcerer to choose up to 4 spell lists (considered splits). The current system allows for customization of the class such as being able to alter the quality of the BAB and Saves gained, slightly more skill oriented, etc.. The more restricted spell lists the player chooses, the more they can alter the base class. They can also choose to use focus restrictions (such as a Gypsy sorcerer needing a Crystal Ball to activate their spell-like abilities) and other ways to customize their spell lists to be unique.

These restricted "splits" can be:
* Minor (No larger than 1/2 the Standard Wizard List, such as banning schools of magic);
* Thematic (Larger lists no more than 1/2 the size of the Wizard list but allowing spells from outside the Wizard list that fit the theme, such as the Bard spell list);
* Spell Path (Similar to Thematic but allowing no more than 5-10 spells per spell level);
* Single Path (Similar to a Domain list with 1 spell per spell level).

Example:
Zythar is an Arcane Orphan Sorcerer with 2 Spell Lists focusing on Invisibility (Single Path) and Stealth (Spell Path of 5-10 spells per spell level such as expeditious retreat, knock, cat's grace, etc.). He also has the following modifications to his personal use os spell-like abilities.
· The Invisibility Path grants invisibility at 1st level rather than 2nd level.
· The Stealth Path requires the use of Thieves’ Tools as a spell focus, requiring a concentration check to use a spell-like power of the spell path without them or the spell fails.
After doing the math for these alterations and restrictions, Zythar chooses to modify his abilities as follows:
· Gain +2 Skill Points/Level and gain 2 Class Skills, Increase to Good Reflex saves, and Increase to an Average BAB.




I have thought about redoing the spell lists to have a set group of Thematic Lists, but I feel this is too restrictive as players can come up with MANY thematic spell lists. Each player should have the ability to choose their own spell lists to fit their character archetype they are trying to create. There should be general guidelines however, based partially on heredity. For example a Celestial bloodline Sorcerer should not be a specialist in Necromantic powers that use or aid Undead, but could instead have a limited spell list of Necromantic spells designed to Fight undead possibly including some of the divine spells. However - just because the Sorcerer is of Celestial descent does not mean that they have to have the same drives as a Celestial. The Sorcerer could still be a battle mage or a diviner, or even a generalist. The choice should be up to the player.

What I am currently unsure of is whether or not to enforce thematic restrictions on a character based on their heritage. For example should a Celestial bloodline Sorcerer only be able to use Positive energy or Planar oriented spells? Or should they have a requirement that one of their spell lists be of a set theme asside from the bonus Domain list they gain? Or should I simply make all Sorcerers use the "Spell Path" spli type to make a custom spell list?

Thanks!

 

[Nifft]

- Take a page from Psionics: your 1st spell at each spell-level MUST come from a specific list, based on your heritage.

- Use the Specialist Wizard / Elemental Savant as an example: you gain
bonuses to casting spells from a certain list, but you cannot cast spells on a certain other list.

- Look at Arcana Unearthed (especially the Witch): you gain access to spells with a certain descriptor.

-- N

 

[Nightfall]

Nightfall ---> As I posted on the other thread... Need more detail about a SL Sorcerer. You havent really told me much of anything about why they are different or better, other than a one sentence fluff statement that excuses why they are so like Wizards. Need a bit more info.

K. Well most SL sorcerers are descended from various titans. Thus they often get powers (a feat really) that establish their ties to that particular titan. For example, a Witch of the Old Blood is someone of Mormo heritage. Now they gain Scion feats which grant them (at the cost of 2 known spell slots a level), +1 to cast such spells and also a bonus to a particular skill. (Usually +2) Also we have better prestige classes that are made just for sorcerers. Much like Scion feats can only be taken by sorcerers, Angel Blooded, Blessed of Mesos, Seekers on the Wind and Voices of Sumara are examples of SL sorcerers at their finest. This isn't to say you couldn't work them around for the other Scion feats, but these are the most common. Angel Blooded for example gain so much angelic power they make half celestials look a little week. Blessed of Mesos is a spellcasting machine/metamagic fiend. Voice of
Sumara are necromantic people that work well inside the city-state of Hollowfaust but can move along if you wish. Much like the Blood stuff in Dragon 310, Scion feats and SL sorcery is all about their blood. I consider them better cause you get some really cool stuff to play around with.

 

[Khaalis]

K. Well most SL sorcerers are descended from various titans. Thus they often get powers (a feat really) that establish their ties to that particular titan. For example, a Witch of the Old Blood is someone of Mormo heritage. Now they gain Scion feats which grant them (at the cost of 2 known spell slots a level), +1 to cast such spells and also a bonus to a particular skill. (Usually +2) Also we have better prestige classes that are made just for sorcerers. Much like Scion feats can only be taken by sorcerers, Angel Blooded, Blessed of Mesos, Seekers on the Wind and Voices of Sumara are examples of SL sorcerers at their finest. This isn't to say you couldn't work them around for the other Scion feats, but these are the most common. Angel Blooded for example gain so much angelic power they make half celestials look a little week. Blessed of Mesos is a spellcasting machine/metamagic fiend. Voice of
Sumara are necromantic people that work well inside the city-state of Hollowfaust but can move along if you wish. Much like the Blood stuff in Dragon 310, Scion feats and SL sorcery is all about their blood. I consider them better cause you get some really cool stuff to play around with.

This makes sense, though very world specific. However, it raises a few basic issues that I was initially concerned with.
1) It makes you take feats to relate to your bloodline heritage, of which the Sorcerer gets precious few to begin with. Being forced to take feats just to make the class "palatable" is what I am trying to break away from.
2) The really "good" classes are not Sorcerer in SL from what you say - they are PrC. I am trying to make a base class that people would want to stick with. The current philosophy of Dump the class as soon as you can get a PrC is what we should be moving away from. PrC should be special and very specific, not something used to make an weak or non-interesting class more palatable. But thats just my humble opinion.

On another note, you mention that not only do you have to spend one of your few feats to attune to your bloodline, but the feat ALSO costs you literally almost HALF of your known spells? Personally that turns me off to the whole idea. It makes the class too restrictive, especially since if I understand your comment correctly, it dealays your spell level access by 4 levels (thus gaining 2nd level spells not until 7th level).

If you could explain better or post a specific example - it might help more.

 

[Khaalis]

- Take a page from Psionics: your 1st spell at each spell-level MUST come from a specific list, based on your heritage.

This is a similar idea but I dont think it translates well to the Sorcerer. Each Psionic Discipline is designed to be a viable power list. Unless the Sorcerer has a specific set of thematic lists, this would be hard to implement.

- Use the Specialist Wizard / Elemental Savant as an example: you gain
bonuses to casting spells from a certain list, but you cannot cast spells on a certain other list.

I am not sure what you are getting at with this. I can see where this works for a Wizard that can change their spells, one day gaining a bonus and other days not getting a bonus due to different spell selection, but a Sorcerer would simply always get the bonus because they cant change spells. Calrify?

- Look at Arcana Unearthed (especially the Witch): you gain access to spells with a certain descriptor.

I like the Witch from AU and I have thought of using it as a simlarity template for the Sorcerer (though I disagree with the name association). However, the Witch is very restrictive when it comes to spells, moreso than the Sorcerer should be in my opinion, especially since the Witch gains a group of class abilities asside from spellcasting (d6 HD, Cleric BAB, High Skills, Simple Weapons, Light Armor, Shields, Witchery Manifestations (including Advanced Witchery and Master Witchery Manifestations), The Sight, Saves vs. Magic). Since a Sorcerer does not gain such Class Abilities, they should not be restricted to one or even two spell descriptors, especially since many of the useful Sorcerer style spells have no descriptors at all.

Comments?