In response to the following…
Stormborn said:
1) “As for the item based feats, you are probablly right that its to much work to rewrite them. I think we are seeing their aquisition differently, but thats not realy germaine to the conversaition.”
2) “I agree about the Light Armor Proff. With Spell-like abilities there is no reason they wouldn't have put some on at one time or another, considerign the self-reliance theme.”
3) Point taken reagrding skill usage. But, I think having a small list is actually an asset to the Sorcerer. He survivies on two things, his ability to cast spells and his personality. Keepign the selections small, focusing on CHA skills as has been done, will cause the Sorcerer to put all his skill points in those skills. Which makes sense to me.”
1) Agreed. We cannot re-write the core Item Creation rules. Anyone who plays a Sorcerer knows that Item Creation is a sub-optimal choice for the class, but they should retain the right to choose the ability to make items if they so choose.
2) Good. That is settles. I do not see Simple Weapons and Light Armor as an overpowering ability gain to the class. They are slightly more defensive than a Wizard in that they can wear light armor and have a slightly wider selection of weapons they can pick up and use but they still retain the “worst” BAB. With their d6 HD this places them slightly higher than the Wizard on melee skill, but quite below the Rogue, and far below any other class. The Sorcerer will still be hard pressed when considering entering melee combat.
3) Good to see you can see my point. However – what do you consider a small skill list? Currently in my revision, as we have discussed, the class has only 8 skills available, 2 of which are generic background skills that all classes should have – Craft and Profession (Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, and Sense Motive). Add to this a possibility of one or two heritage skills. I think this is pretty balanced to the rest of the classes. Especially considering when you look at it – the Core Sorcerer has worse skills than even a Fighter.
Compare to:
Barbarian = 9 skills
Bard = 35 skills (including Speak Language, and the 10 Core Knowledge skills)
Cleric = 10 skills (plus any domain skills)
Druid = 12 skills
Fighter = 7 skills
Monk = 18 skills
Paladin = 10 skills
Ranger = 19 skills
Rogue = 29 skills
Sorcerer = 8 skills (with heritage 9 or 10) - Core was 6 skills
Wizard = 15 skills (including the 10 Core Knowledge skills)
In response to the following…
Vrylakos said:
One key idea: Sorcerers in this system, when they gain spells, can gain them in any level the can currently cast. This allows a sorcerer more flexibility despite his smaller number of spells. Check the class level advancement chart for more.
While I like the idea, it is a bit cumbersome with the spell known acquisition table. I am not sure I want to break TOO far from the core class by altering its core spell tables. Others thoughts on changing the core spell tables??
However, on the flip side...
This could give the sorcerer a better balanced feeling, and would make the class much more easily managed to simply say that at every spell level the Sorcerer gains 2 new known spells of any spell level they may cast, with the addition of 9 (or even 6) cantrips at 1st level. This would give the sorcerer a slight boost in known spells at the upper end of the scale, bringing them to 40 spells known (plus cantrips) over the core sorcerer's 34 (and 9 cantrips).
If I am interpreting the information correctly the Sorcerer will end up knowing 9 Cantrips and 2 domain spells per level for 18 spells as base, plus an additional 19 spells (of varying spell level). So this increases the overall number of known spells from the core sorcerer by 3 (34 core vs. 37 yours – not counting Cantrips). Not a bad gain, not overpowering, but I do have two main questions.
1) I like the idea of free form spell slots, but see that it might get abused. If you have a Sorcerer with say only a 14 Charisma, they can normally only cast up to 4th level spells. With your table though, if the Sorcerer were to continue on beyond 9th level and retain a 14 Charisma, they could still continue to gain more spells to their existing spell levels. It would average 1 new spell per level but in the end they would end up with the same 37 spells at 20th level - but all of 1st-4th level (averaging 9 spells per spell level). Does this cause balance issues? Is it an abuse of the system?
2) Where would the 3.5 Spell Swapping come in? Currently in 3.5 when you spell swap you cannot drop a 3rd level spell known at say 15th level and instead pick up a 7th level instead. In your system – there really isn’t a way to restrict that – unless you say that once you “purchase” a spell known slot – you are stuck with it. The same as standard spell swap, if you swap a spell – it has to be of the same spell level. Also you would have to restrict the domain spells so that they cannot be swapped.
The Domain idea is a fairly well conceived idea in that they also grant a domain power similar to a cleric. However, that is also a downfall – it is too similar to a cleric. As much as I want to make the Sorcerer a better crafted and more appealing class, I don’t want it to become merely a shadow of a cleric instead of the current shadow of a wizard that it is now.
I do like the idea of the domain spell lists however as they do help to focus a heredity based spell access for the sorcerer. The only downfall is the same problem Cleric Domains have right now in that they are too open for interpretation. One persons definition of the spells that should be on a
Charm Domain are different from another person’s definition.
In response to the following…
Knight_Errant said:
After giving the topic some considerable thought, I have decided what it is that I think is most lacking with the sorcerer class: class abilities. To that end, I think that sorcerers should have some class abilities which would follow a progression similar to a druid, barbarian, or ranger.
Stormborn said:
K, if you have not done so already check out the Modern SRD for Talents, think of them as class specific Feat trees and you will get the idea.
These quotes seem to be a pretty relevant to one another. Add in the comment about AU Witch to add more weight to the argument since adding unique supernatural abilities to the class is what makes it unique.
The idea of class abilities and Modern’s “Talents” are pretty much the same discussion. The only difference is that in Modern, each class has its own set of talent trees that it can follow that are basically a set of feats/class abilities that stack upon one another. Modern seems to give access to 5 such abilities, from a decent sized range of abilities to allow for “customization”.
Example: THE FAST HERO gets 5 Talents (every odd level 1-9). They may choose from:
From the SRD:
Talents
At 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, the Fast hero selects a talent from the following talent trees. Some trees have a set order that must be followed, while others provide a list to choose from. As long as the hero qualifies, he or she can select freely from any and all talent trees. No talent can be selected more than once unless expressly indicated.
Defensive Talent Tree
The Fast hero gains the ability to improve his or her innate defensive talents as the hero attains new levels.
* Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1 (Prerequisite: Evasion), Uncanny Dodge 2 (Prerequisites: Evasion, uncanny dodge 1), Defensive Roll (Prerequisites: Evasion, uncanny dodge 1), Opportunist (Prerequisite: Evasion)
Increased Speed Talent Tree
The Fast hero can increase his or her natural base speed.
* Increased Speed, Improved Increased Speed (Prerequisite: Increased speed), Advanced Increased Speed (Prerequisites: Increased speed, improved increased speed).
Now, what this brings up is the idea of adding such to the Sorcerer. How do we add such abilities to the Sorcerer without making the class
“too powerful”?
Balance Comparison
(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiencies.)
Barbarian = 24 abilities (9 without iterations)
Bard = 15 abilities (12 without iterations)
Cleric = 5 abilities (including spontaneous swapping)
Druid = 25 abilities (including spontaneous swapping; 17 without iterations)
Fighter = 11 abilities
Monk = 33 abilities (includes AC increase and speed; 25 without iterations)
Paladin = 19 abilities (11 without iterations)
Ranger = 18 abilities
Rogue = 24 abilities (10 without iterations)
Sorcerer = 2 abilities
Wizard = 7 abilities
As you can see the Core Sorcerer is the worst by far. Even a Cleric has 2 more class abilities, not counting heavy armor and shields, better saves, better HD, and better BAB, and ability to Spontaneously Swap Spells for healing.
I am sorry, but the slight increase in casting ability of the sorcerer over a Cleric or Wizard (which in reality only comes out to 1 or 2 more spells per spell level) is not enough to justify that the Sorcerer has no special abilities beyond a Familiar. Which in and of itself is another annoying shadow of the wizard. If sorcerers are purely innate and have no magic training – why (or better yet) HOW would they have the knowledge to perform a Familiar Summoning ritual?
Thus I am going to have to conclude that the Sorcerer DOES deserve class abilities that make it a unique entity. The question of balance comes into play on how many?
The average number of class abilities (not counting Sorcerer):
Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations)
Thus the lowest average of class abilities falls to those that are Pure Casters – thus saying that these casters rely primarily on their Spells. Following that line of thought, the Sorcerer has more spells than any other caster so it should have less average class abilities.
Thus, I am thinking of letting the Sorcerer gain 10 such class abilities at: Heritage & Spells at 1st, and then a Sorcerer Ability at 1st, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th. This is 2 abilities lower than the average 12 class abilities for other spellcasters and keeps a steady progression rhythm on the table.
Now what to grant for Sorcerer Abilities…
If we look at many of the classes and see a precedent for the types of abilities that can be gained. If we take the fluff of the sorcerer we can then begin to build on the idea. (See the previous posts with the quotes)
The best thing I can think of for special class abilities would be Supernatural Powers. These are abilities that are magical in orientation but that are not “cast”. They cannot be disrupted, do not generally provoke attacks of opportunity, but do not work in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.
Common Examples: A cleric’s ability to channel positive or negative energy, a Bard’s ability to
Inspire, a Druid’s Wild Shape and Thousand Faces, a Monk’s Ki and Wholeness of Body, etc. and so-forth. Maybe add a few Spell-Like additions to the list when appropriate.
So the precedent is already set to use Supernatural abilities as class abilities. This makes the most sense for the sorcerer who is basically a living embodiment of internal magic, basically the “Super Hero” character type of the D&D setting.
With that said, what types of abilities should a Sorcerer have? Once we have the abilities – what types of heredity should have access to what abilities?
Lets start with some of the basics already designed and in the books.
PHB
Channeling Energy to Turn/Rebuke Undead: This could be altered to allow a form of channeling magic to Counterspell or to Dispel.
Wild Shape: Allow the basic ability to wild shape to a child of nature.
Elemental Wild Shape: Allow the elemental wild shape to a child of the elements.
Thousand Face: Allow to a specific group(s) with certain prerequisites met.
Ki Strike: Alter it to make their weapons count as magic for DR.
Wholeness of Body & Diamond Body: Allow to certain heredities like dragon, celestial, etc.
Abundant Step & Empty Body: Allow to those of outsider heritage.
Smite: Allow a modified version that channels magical energy.
Aura of Courage & Divine Grace: Magic makes the sorcerer tougher
MM ideas: Darkvision or Low Light Vision, Madness (mind protected from mental intrusions), Auras (Menace, Fear, etc.), limited use Ray attacks, Gaze Attacks, Portative Abilities, True Sight, Elemental Shielding, Telepathy, Levitation, etc. etc.
Now obviously some of these are more powerful than others. We would have to restrict more powerful abilities to higher levels (or just not allow them as options).
The question is – what kinds of things should a Sorcerer be able to do as they manifest more and more magical power within themselves?
Using Knight-Errants’ idea on
detect magic and combining this with the idea of prerequisites to designate when a character can gain these abilities to limit the minimum level they can be attained, we could end up with the following stacking abilities.
Arcane Senses (Su): If the Sorcerer has 6 or more ranks in Concentration, they may become naturally attuned to the flow of magical energy in all things around them. They can feel magic’s flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, the Sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using
detect magic (as the spell) at will. This supernatural ability is activated as a free action and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the Sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).
Identification (Su): If the Sorcerer has 5 ranks or more in Knowledge (Arcana) and the Improved Arcane Senses ability, they can attune their Arcane Senses into an innate ability to read the magical aura in devices as well as see the flow and presence of magic. The Sorcerer may identify magical items by studying them using their ability to
Detect Magic and combining it with their Knowledge (Arcana) skill. They must spend one hour inspecting the item and testing it. In the process of studying charged items, this process automatically burns one charge, though the energy seeps from the item harmlessly. After one hour, the Sorcerer makes a Knowledge (Arcana) check with a DC determined by the table below. If successful, the Sorcerer has identified one of the item’s magical properties. If they fail, they immediately activate the item (targeting the Sorcerer).
Code:
Item Type DC Item Type DC
Armor 20 Weapon 20
Potion 15 Ring 25
Rod 20 Scroll 15
Staff 25 Wand 20
Wondrous Item 25
Improved Arcane Senses (Su): If the Sorcerer has 6 or more ranks in Spot and has at least a 13+ Wisdom and has the Arcane Senses ability, they may learn to focus and intensify the manifestation of their Arcane Senses to the point that their Arcane Senses becomes so attuned to magic as to allow them to see as if using arcane sight (as the spell) at will. This supernatural ability is activated as a free action and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the Sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).
True Sight (Su): If the Sorcerer has 8 or more ranks in Spot and has at least a 13+ Wisdom and has the Arcane Senses ability, they may learn to focus and intensify the manifestation of their Arcane Senses to the point that their Arcane Senses becomes so attuned to magic as to allow them to see as if using
true sight (as the spell) at will. This supernatural ability is always active.
Some other ideas taken from Stormborn’s article in Dragon #311.
Arcane Kinship (Su): If the Sorcerer is of the Sorcerous Family heritage and can cast 3rd level spells, they can draw on the force of personality of their Sorcerous heritage and gain a +4 racial bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information skill checks with other arcane casters.
Celestial Light (Sp): If the Sorcerer is of the Child of Magic (Celestial Outsider) heritage and can cast 2nd level spells, they can draw on the power of their heritage and can use
light 5 times per day as a spell-like ability at the sorcerer’s class level.
Fey Fate (Su): If the Sorcerer is of the Child of Nature heritage and can cast 2nd level spells, they can draw on the power of their heritage and gain a +1 racial bonus to all saving throws.
Friend of the Earth (Su): If the Sorcerer is of the Child of the Elements (Earth) heritage and can cast 2nd level spells, they can draw on the power of their heritage and gain a +3 circumstance bonus to Climb and Tumble checks.
Kin Mastery (Su): Child of Magic (Outsider) or Child of the Elements heritage, and can cast 3rd level spells, they can draw on the power of their heritage and can, once per day, choose to turn or rebuke (not both, chosen on taking the ability) creatures of the same bloodline as if a Cleric of their ½ Sorcerer class level. This ability may be taken more than once gaining 1 use per day extra.
Waterborn (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Child of the Elements (Water) heritage and can cast 2nd level spells, they can draw on the power of their heritage and gain a +6 circumstance bonus to Swim checks.
Some other ideas:
Draconic Scent (Su): If the Sorcerer is of the Child of Magic (Draconic) heritage and can cast 2nd level spells, they can draw on the power of their heritage and gain the Scent ability.
Fleetness of the Elements (Su): If the Sorcerer is of the Child of the Elements (Air or Fire) heritage and can cast 2nd level spells, they can draw on the power of their heritage and gain a +10’ base speed.
Oracle (Su): If the Sorcerer is of the Arcane Expert, Arcane Orphan, Child of Nature, or Divine Receptacle heritage they can be blessed (or cursed) with the innate ability in the arts of Divination. Each time the Sorcerer with this ability gains a new spell level, they gain a Divination spell-like ability of that level as a bonus known spell-like ability. In addition, oracles cast all Divination spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level. If the Sorcerer also uses the typical trappings of Fortune Telling as a spell focus (such as Tarot Cards, Crystal Ball, etc.), their Divination spell-like abilities are cast at +2 caster levels.
Spirit Guide (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Arcane Expert, Arcane Orphan, or Divine Receptacle heritage, they can be blessed (or cursed) with a supernatural ability to channel necromantic energy and tend to focus on the world of ghosts and spirits. The sorcerer gains the following spells from the necromancer school as bonus known spell-like abilities and uses them at a +1 caster level: Disrupt Undead, Halt Undead, Animate Undead, Control Undead, and Soul Bind. Additionally the sorcerer gains the spell-like ability Speak with Dead as a bonus 3rd level arcane spell-like ability and the Create Greater Undead spell-like ability as a bonus 9th level arcane spell-like ability. These are also cast at a +1 caster level.
Summoner (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Child of Magic (Celestial or Fiendish), Child of the Elements or Divine Receptacle heritage, they can attain a specialized affinity for summoning creatures from other planes. At each spell level they gain Summon Monster of the appropriate level as a bonus known spell-like ability and use all Summon Monster spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level.
Totem Avatar (Su): If the sorcerer is of the Child of Nature heritage they may be blessed with the supporting power of a specific totem. The totem grants the sorcerer a boost to power when in any natural environment allowing the sorcerer to use their spell-like abilities at a +1 caster level, and grants the sorcerer a +2 Charisma bonus when dealing with animals and other nature oriented creatures such as a Fey.
And last but not least the classics …
Familiar (Su): If the Sorcerer is from the Arcane Experiment, Arcane Orphan, Child of Nature, or Sorcerous Family heritage, they may choose to summon a familiar. The Sorcerer may utilize all of the associated information on familiars (see “3E Familiars.doc”).
Metamagic Feats: The Sorcerer may choose a bonus feat from the “Suggested Sorcerer Metamagic Feat by Source” table, though any necessary prerequisites must be met. Metamagic feats are handled normally, taking a full round action to augment a spell-like ability with a metamagic effect.
Ok….thoughts, ideas, comments???
