Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules"

[Khaalis]

EDIT:

Mission Statement: To create a dynamic and appealing version of the sorcerer class that:
A) Make a sorcerer class mechanic that Matches the Flavor Text as designated in the PHB.
B) Balances the class to the existing core classes of the PHB.
C) Could be used as a substitute for the core sorcerer of the PHB.
D) Present further options to advance and customize the sorcerer.​

Split from the initial topic and query @ http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75827

In the afore mentioned thread, it became clear that many people felt that the Sorcerer lacked primarily in one major aspect, Flavor, as well as an agreement on some minor mechanics problems. What I am looking to do is rework the class basics to make it match the fluff for the class as well as to give the class what many seem to feel it is missing – a truly unique class feeling.

The best example I saw given was that the Sorcerer should be to the Wizard, what the Druid is to the Cleric. Both the druid and the cleric are divine casters but they are drastically different in feel and abilities.

Some quotes from the Sorcerer’s fluff that need to be addressed in the mechanics:

Magic Used:
• “A Sorcerer’s power is inborn, and part of his soul. Developing this power is a quest in itself for many Sorcerers, regardless of how they wish to use their power.”
• “For Sorcerers, magic is an intuitive art, not a science.”
• “Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories – just raw power that they direct at will.”
• “Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled and sometimes dangerous. Eventually the sorcerer understands the power that he has been wielding unintentionally. From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his powers.”

This is the most intricate topic of the sorcerer. Currently the only reflection of these statements is that the Sorcerer is a Spontaneous caster. Many people seem to believe that this is not truly enough to reflect that “Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice” and that “A Sorcerer’s power is inborn, and part of his soul.”

One primary suggestion that has come about to show this, is to re-write the Sorcerer’s spell list so that they have a unique spell list as do every other spellcasting class in the game. The question however – is what should that spell list be?
• Should it be Personal only spells? Touch only? Personal and Touch? Etc.
• Should it be that the Sorcerer has to take a single school? Or possibly adding added schools later on?
• Should the Sorcerer follow something along the lines of a Magic Path such as being a Fire Sorcerer or a Portative Sorcerer?
What do people see as something that could become a “unique” spell list for the Sorcerer rather than giving them the full run of Wizard spells?

The other question that really comes to mind to make the Sorcerer truly unique, is that all of the comments in the fluff describe the Sorcerer’s magic power as Intuitive, Inborn, Innate. Many people have listed adding feats to the class such as Eschew Materials, Spell Thematics, etc. However, if we wish to make the Sorcerer truly unique, but still stick to the standard Vancian spell progression lists but give it the feel of being INNATE POWER or to quote “just raw power that they direct at will,” we should really stick to the basic concept of simplicity to bend the class to follow the fluff…

In short, Sorcerers do not “Cast Spells”, they use innate arcane powers. Thus if we keep it simiple and use the existing rules already in the system, and not heaping on more and more “abilities” to the class - we can look in the PH and see that this is already defined as a Spell-Like Ability.

From the SRD
“Spell-Like Abilities: Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.
Using a Spell-Like Ability on the Defensive: You may attempt to use a spell-like ability on the defensive, just as with casting a spell. If the Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) fails, you can’t use the ability, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability.”

I think this should be what is used to substitute for the standard “casting” of spells. When a Sorcerer gets spells known, these can be considered to be the Spell-Like Powers known by the Sorcerer. When they gain Spells Per Day, this is how many times per day they can activate Spell-Like Powers from a given spell level per day. Doesn’t change the base mechanic of Spells per day or Spells known but does change three influential points…
* No Arcane Spell Failure as there are no somatic components. (Still Spell)
* No Material Components, except for foci and other large value items. (Eschew Materials)
* No Verbal Components. (Silent Spell)

Now this does make a Sorcerer’s ability more unique and offers them some influential power in the few spell-like abilities that they can cast. Adding the limitation of the Spell List of the Sorcerer would help to create a more unique feeling to the Sorcerer.

If worried about the fact that a Sorcerer would be difficult to detect casting spells, there is always the Manifestation rules for Psions that could be applied, basically saying that when a Sorcerer is using a Spell-Like Ability, there is some form of power manifestation (aura, lights, wind, noises, smells, etc.) that give them away. This would again help to make them a unique variant of an arcane user.


Combat & Skills:
• “Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.”
• “Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through carefully trained skills. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical.”
• “Sorcerers find they have most in common with members of the other self-taught classes, such as Druids and Rogues.”
• “Sorcerers have no sense of identity as a group. Unlike Wizards, they gain little by sharing their knowledge and have no strong incentive to work together.”
• “Since Sorcerers often have a powerful presence that gives them a way with people, they frequently serve as the “face” for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others. The Sorcerer’s spells often help him sway others or gain information, so he makes an excellent spy or diplomat for an adventuring party.”

Another primary issue seems to be that the Fluff and the Mechanics to the Sorcerer do not match when it comes to combat ability and skills.

Currently the Sorcerer gains: Simple Weapons, No Armor, Worst BAB, Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int); and 2+INT for skill points.

• “Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.”
This seems to only be reflected as the acquisition of Simple Weapon Proficiency, which when examined closely, is not really that much better than a Wizard’s weapon selection. For a class that has more time to learn fighting skills – they still have d4 HD and a Wizard’s BAB. I would suggest (as most do) to at the very least raise HD to d6. It would also be possible to allow Light Armor Proficiency. This would give the Sorcerer similar defensive capability to that of a Rogue, but less combative skill that a Rogue.


• “Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.”
• “Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through carefully trained skills. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical.”
This statement simply makes you question… then why do Sorcerers get Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft as a class skills?
From the SRD: “[Knowledge] Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)”.
From the SRD: “[Spellcraft] You can identify spells and magic effects.”

If a Sorcerer does not undergo any training – why would they have this level of information and Arcane training?


• “Sorcerers find they have most in common with members of the other self-taught classes, such as Druids and Rogues.”
• “Since Sorcerers often have a powerful presence that gives them a way with people, they frequently serve as the “face” for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others. The Sorcerer’s spells often help him sway others or gain information, so he makes an excellent spy or diplomat for an adventuring party.”
This statement would lead me to believe that the Sorcerer should have a broader base of skills or be somewhat better at what they do. Combined I would broaden the Class Skill list to include all of the social skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate as well as the non-Charisma social skill of Sense Motive. I would suggest leaving Perform to the Bard. Since many Sorcerers are forced out to survive on their own due their uncontrolled magic, I would also allow Knowledge (Local) and Survival. I would also bring the skill points more into line with the self-taught classes of Ranger, Bard, and Rogue and bring the skill points to at least 4+INT per level.

Thus Class Skills would be: (4+INT/Level)
Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), Profession, Sense Motive and Survival.


Heredity:
• “Some Sorcerers claim the blood of dragons courses through their veins. Sorcerers even often have striking good looks, usually with a touch of the exotic that hints at an unusual heritage.”

This is a huge issue. Either it needs to be ignored, assumed that the innate Spell-Like Ability is the hereditary legacy, or develop a system that allows for customization based on heredity. If the later is chosen this should be an optional choice for each DM similar to the ideas put forth by the Quintessential Sorcerer and the Forgotten Heroes – Sorcerer sourcebooks.

For the Core Sorcerer, I would lean toward simply using the Spell-Like Ability as the hereditary legacy and do not put any emphasis upon where that heredity comes from.


Ability Balance:
Many feel that the Sorcerer should be able to have abilities acquired as thy rise in level. For example being able to gain Metamagic feats at the same level a Wizard does.

I am unsure what to add if anything to this idea. Since they would be using Spell-Like Abilities and thus gaining all the benefits of that (basically 3 feat-like benefits) - do they still need more?

Does that class need more "Unique" abilities similar to the way a Druid gains powers on top of spellcasting?


Thanks all for the input!

 

[CombatWombat51]

I'm not gonna go through your post in tons of detail, mostly because I'm lazy, and I also spend enough time on my own house rules

I really like your ideas, because I agree that the sorc should be to the wizard as a druid is to the cleric. My only suggestion is that with all those changes, that are definately power increases, they need a drawback of some kind. The only class abilities that are standard that can really be decreased (since everything else in an increase) is their spellcasting. I think you should go with reducing their spell list, so that they don't have access to as many spells as wizards. The problem with that is figuring out what spells fit the sorcerer. But that doesn't cut down the list enough. The rest of the spell list could be done away with in a way similar to specialist wizards. Make sorcerers pick a limited number of schools, cut out utility spells like floating disk and unseen servant, maybe toss in a few extras from other spell lists, and I think you might be ok. Of course, it all depends on how exactly the rest of the changes are made, but I think that's a good direction.

Happy creating!

 

[Nightfall]

Khaal,

Not bad, but unnecessary in my view. Mostly because unlike old D&D style stuff, in the Scarred Lands there's a DAMN good reason for sorcery. It came first. Thus sorcerers are primordal spellcasters. Their blood is their power. But that's just me I guess.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Dragon #310 has sorcerous bloodline feats that help strengthen a Sorceror's ties to whatever magical ancestor gave him his powers. They grant one specific extra spell known for each spell level (usually non-optimal spells), and further along the feat tree, you get things like small extra powers and bonuses to Diplomacy when dealing with your kin.

If you set up a feat progression of those feats for the Sorceror, you'd give them a small boost in power and, in my opinion, a tremendous boost in flavor.

 

[Unseelie]

Dragon #310 has sorcerous bloodline feats that help strengthen a Sorceror's ties to whatever magical ancestor gave him his powers. They grant one specific extra spell known for each spell level (usually non-optimal spells), and further along the feat tree, you get things like small extra powers and bonuses to Diplomacy when dealing with your kin.

If you set up a feat progression of those feats for the Sorceror, you'd give them a small boost in power and, in my opinion, a tremendous boost in flavor.

I'd go one step further... those feats you describe from the Dragon are effectively Domain spell lists. Why even make the Sorceror use a feat. Let them pick a 'bloodline' at first level, much like a Cleric picks a domain.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Ok, spell list reduction is easy... since they already get an Eschew Materials ability, they only gain spells from the wizard lists that have a component that can be eschewed - so nothing with an arcane focus, nothing with an expensive component (like identify).

Cuts the list in half.

 

[Khaalis]

Nightfall ---> As I posted on the other thread... Need more detail about a SL Sorcerer. You havent really told me much of anything about why they are different or better, other than a one sentence fluff statement that excuses why they are so like Wizards. Need a bit more info.

Wippit ---> This is a great idea! However, I think you over-estimated the number of spells. I just went through the book and this is the list of Sor/Wiz spells with a Material Component or Arcane Focus over 1gp.

Banned Wiz Spells
1st: Identify
2nd: Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Leomund’s Trap, Magic Mouth
3rd: Illusory Script, Nondetection, Sepia Snake Sigil
4th: Animate Dead, Fire Trap, Scrying, Stoneskin
5th: False Vision, Magic Jar, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Sleep
6th: Analyze Dweomer, Circle of Death, Contingency, Create Undead, Legend Lore, Repulsion, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, True Seeing, Undeath to Death, Wall of Iron
7th: Drawmij’s Instant Summons, Forcecage, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Project Image, Scrying (Greater), Simulacrum, Symbol of Stunning, Symbol of Weakness, Vision
8th: Binding, Clone, Protection from Spells, Symbol of Death, Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy, Temporal Stasis, Trap the Soul
9th: Astral Projection, Refuge, Shapechange, Teleportation Circle

Any other suggestions?

In fact I am toying with some material that will only allow a sorcerer to pick from a very limited number of Themed spell lists: (ie. Fire Sorcerer, Gypsy Sorcerer, Infiltrator Sorcerer, Portation Sorcerer, etc.)

Number of known spells isnt so much of an issue. Currently I am toying with giving them a very small bonus based on Intelligence, granting them the same bonuses to Known Spells that high Intelligence would normally grant a Wizard in cast spells. Thus an 18 Intelligence would grant 1 bonus 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell.

I do like some of the heritage ideas. I am currently looking at something similar as an option, a mix of things presented in the Quintessential Sorcerer and in Forgotten Hereos - Sorcerer. In general it grants a bonus spell per spell level (set spells related to the heritage - some can be outside wizard list like a Bard does) so that a Sorcerer is forced into some kind of powers relating to its sorce of magic. The bonus spell however is offset with banned spell designators or entire types of spells.

Example: A Celestial heritage grants Domain spells from the Good domain (no domain power though). The return restriction is that they can never know nor even use an item that duplicates an Evil Descriptor or a Spell that appears on the Evil Domain list. Further they cannot take any prestige class or template that in any way involves a heritage other than Celestial (ie: No dragon PrC's, no Fiendish templates, etc.).

{Soapbox/Rant Warning}
As for the suggestion of taking a line of feats to acquire this or that... If making a player take a specific stream of feats a requirement just to make a class "palatable" is the solution, IMHO that is almost as broken as the "unpalatable" class. By doing this, you take away any form of flexibility, any ability to ever attain a PrC, and most importantly you take away the Primary foundation stone that was supposed to be behind 3E generation - free choice. Personally - and I am not trying to flame here - I think that saying "take feats" is not the answer to fixing the class. People said the same thing about the Ranger and look what it needed for an overhaul. /deep breath...
{Off Soapbox/Rant}

Again - all comments are welcome - even the ones telling me it isnt broken (assuming there are good arguments which most have) as it makes me think and rething the concepts and ideas.

Thanks!

 

[Bibliophile]

What about a system like this to differientiate sorcerror casters from wizards (along with a changed spell list).

Each time a sorcerror casts a spell, he must make a special check. This check is performed by rolling d20 + caster level / 2 (rounded down), against a DC of 10 + Spell Level.

For every 2 points that the sorcerror's roll exceeds the DC, the spell's Saving Throw DC and the check to bypass Spell Resistance gain a +1 Sorcerrous bonus.

Similarily, for every 2 points that the sorcerror's roll falls below the DC, the spell's Saving Throw DC and the check to bypass Spell Resistance gain a -1 Sorcerrous bonus.

That way, when a sorcerror first gainst spells of a given level, on average, they'll work normally, with the chance of being more or less powerful (representing the "releasing magical energy" bit). Also, as a sorcerror progresses in levels, his lower level spells (that he is now more familiar with) will on average function better than they would for a wizard (as the wizard uses the same formula every time they cast, but a sorcerror, being an intuitive caster, can get better and better at casting the same spell).

This should balance out the sorcerror's lack of bonus feats and lower spell selection.

As an example in case what I typed wasn't clear enough, say you have a 18th level sorcerror with a 20 Cha.

If he knows, and casts Meteor Swarm (9th), he needs to roll d20+9 vs a DC 19.
If he rolls a 9, 10, or 11 (with net results of 18, 19, and 20 respectively), the spell functions normally. If he rolls a 7 or 8, the spell's Save DC and his roll to penetrate Spell Resistance lowers by one (from the base of 24). If he rolls a 5 or 6, the spell's Save DC and his roll to penetrate Spell Resistance lowers by two. If he rolls a 3 or 4, the spell's Save DC and his roll to penetrate Spell Resistance lowers by three. And if he rolls a 1 or 2, the spell's Save DC and his roll to penetrate Spell Resistance lowers by four.

If he rolls a 12 or 13, the spell's Save DC and his roll to penetrate Spell Resistance increase by one. Etc... yadda yadda yadda.

Meanwhile, if the same sorcerror wants to cast Fireball (3rd), then he rolls d20+9 vs a DC 13. Now, if he rolls a 3, 4, or 5, the spell functions as normal. If he rolls a 1 or a 2, its save DC and his roll to penetrate Spell Resistance are lowered by one, while if he rolls a 20, then its save DC and his roll to penetrate Spell Resistance are both increased by 8 (making for a much scarier Fireball).

The only thing is it doesn't do anything for a spell without a saving throw or SR check. So, buff spells and misc. utility spells can't be affected in this manner, though I suppose some method might be worked out for them.

So, what do you guys think?

 

[Stormborn]

{Soapbox/Rant Warning}
As for the suggestion of taking a line of feats to acquire this or that... If making a player take a specific stream of feats a requirement just to make a class "palatable" is the solution, IMHO that is almost as broken as the "unpalatable" class. By doing this, you take away any form of flexibility, any ability to ever attain a PrC, and most importantly you take away the Primary foundation stone that was supposed to be behind 3E generation - free choice. Personally - and I am not trying to flame here - I think that saying "take feats" is not the answer to fixing the class. People said the same thing about the Ranger and look what it needed for an overhaul. /deep breath...
{Off Soapbox/Rant}

Thanks!

Actually Khaalis, I wrote the Dragon article in question, and I happen to agree with you. I love the flavor text of the sorcerer, it describes the way I think magic would work, and it was the very first class I played in an RPG (and the sorcerer's name was Grayalyn Stormborn BTW). My group changes what we play all the time,often with me running it, and I haven't had a chance to play a DnD game since we ended that one.

However, if we did play DnD and I ran the game I would give the Sorcerer one of the Bloodlines as a free "feat." I really thought of them as domains anyway. I like what has been said about limiting the sorcerer's spell list, but I think it also needs to go another way. Given my prefrences I would allow a Sorcerer to choose from ANY spell list, as long as the choices were thematically balanced with the character concept. A Fire Bloodline should be able to choose any spell with the fire descriptor, or a Celestial bloodline any spell with a Good or maybe even Light descriptor.

I would give a Sorcerer Eskew Materials and either a Quickened version of Silent or Still Spell. Let the player choose. Its seems that a sorcerer would have developed some personal rituals to help him develop and control his powers, so they don't go off everytime he thinks about them. Maybe later, around 10th level, he might aquire the other. I do find the idea of making them spell-like abilites interesting, and perhaps somethign to persue.

If you are worried about those bonus feats overpowering the class, restrict the sorcerer's access to magic item creation feats. Making magic items istirkes me as something a trained proffesional does. Although he might learn them by taking a level in somethign else, expert maybe?

And/or get rid of the familiar. Which would be my solution I think.

Yes to the d6 HD.

I also would remove Knowledge(arcana) from the skill list, but keep Spellcraft. Spellcraft can be an instictive instead of a learned skill. Add Intimidate, it makes more sense anyway, especially if this is an outsider who is making his way in the world.

Great thoughts, Khaalis, I will be interested in seeing your final product.

 

[Khaalis]

Actually Khaalis, I wrote the Dragon article in question, and I happen to agree with you.

Well, wow. Thanks. Consgrats on getting published. Is the Issue mentioned (310) a typo or was it #311? If #311, I wont be ashamed to say I already ripped off your material. If its #310 – I just haven’t gotten to it yet (I have a stack of Dragons in my desk drawer at work that I am slowly making my way through picking out useful tidbits).
I will also say its cool to get to actually talk to someone who has gotten published and that agrees with me.

I love the flavor text of the sorcerer, it describes the way I think magic would work, and it was the very first class I played in an RPG (and the sorcerer's name was Grayalyn Stormborn BTW). My group changes what we play all the time,often with me running it, and I haven't had a chance to play a DnD game since we ended that one.
However, if we did play DnD and I ran the game I would give the Sorcerer one of the Bloodlines as a free "feat." I really thought of them as domains anyway. I like what has been said about limiting the sorcerer's spell list, but I think it also needs to go another way. Given my prefrences I would allow a Sorcerer to choose from ANY spell list, as long as the choices were thematically balanced with the character concept. A Fire Bloodline should be able to choose any spell with the fire descriptor, or a Celestial bloodline any spell with a Good or maybe even Light descriptor.

I love the idea of the Sorcerer myself but I can never bring myself to play one (not that I get to play much anymore) since I play tested it the last 2 times.

As for your suggestion about the Bloodline Feat. I need a refresher on the feats to make sure I am thinking of the right article. On a side note what I currently have is a mix of information and ideas from the #311 article as well as from Quintessential Sorcerer and the Forgotten Heroes-Sorcerer.

Basically as follows:
“Heredity (Ex): All Sorcerers are born to their heritage of Sorcerous power, though some do not know what heritage it is that brings them their power. The Sorcerer’s heritage plays a dramatic part in the determining of what a Sorcerer actually is. Heritage is more of a Customization system than a true “Ability”. For those not wishing to use the Heritage option, simply substitute with a Sorcerer Ability.
The following are the Heritage Sources a Sorcerer may choose from: Arcane Experiment, Arcane Orphan, Child of Magic, Child of Nature, Child of the Elements, Divine Receptacle, and Sorcerous Family. See “Table: Heritage Options” for specifics on the individual heritages.”

Each heritage gains one or two related class skills to add to the list, a few minor skill bonuses, one spell path which is a domain-like spell list that grants +1 Known Spell per spell level, grants the use of a Spell Template (from Arcana Unearthed – if they are used), limits their spell selection, and carries some other minor penalty such as possible alignment restrictions, etc.

As an example of a Heritage:

Arcane Orphan: The Arcane Orphan is the most common of sorcerers and is thus the Default Sorcerer heritage for those using heritage but not choosing a specific heritage. The Arcane Orphan is unaware of the heritage they carry and most do not care to know for all they care is that they have the power. Most Arcane Orphans are also true orphans, forced to survive in a rough world relying on their wit and their burgeoning powers.
· Gain 2 of the following skills as class skills: Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand.
· +1 bonus to all Bluff and Survival skill checks.
· May choose any one Spell Template that they may apply to their spell-like abilities.
· Bonus Known Spell-like Abilities: The sorcerer gains one bonus spell-like ability per spell level of their choice from the Abjuration, Enchantment or Illusion schools. This list is chosen at 1st level. This becomes their Arcane Orphan Spell Path.
· The Arcane Orphan Sorcerer chooses one Descriptor from any school of choice (other than Divination) that they may never learn any spell-like abilities nor use any item that activates a spell or spell-like ability with that descriptor.
· Due to a lack of training in their powers, Arcane Orphans suffer a -2 incompetence bonus on all Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks.
· May not choose their Arcane Orphan Spell Path as a Spell List Restriction. (another alternate rule system for minor customizations)

As for choosing from any spell list, much of that is covered in the heritage choice as well as the use of an optional spell list limiter “rule system” – which I am not sure I am going to keep. Basically it is an adaptation from Forgotten Heroes – Sorcerer that lets you create specific spell list types. The more narrow you make the choices, the more ability you have to customize the sorcerer to the archetype being created. For example if you severely limit your spells available, you might be able to increase the BAB to a Rogue level or turn Fortitude into a Good save. Not sure how much I like this concept currently – though it is nice to have the idea of something more customized to the individual sorcerer. An example of a severly limited list is a Domain list – only one spell per spell level. There are also Thematic lists that give you 5-10 spells per spell level to choose from that fit a specific theme such as a Gypsy List or something akin to the Paladin List.

I would give a Sorcerer Eskew Materials and either a Quickened version of Silent or Still Spell. Let the player choose. Its seems that a sorcerer would have developed some personal rituals to help him develop and control his powers, so they don't go off everytime he thinks about them. Maybe later, around 10th level, he might aquire the other. I do find the idea of making them spell-like abilites interesting, and perhaps somethign to persue.

This is why I make the argument for Spell-Like Abilities in the 1st place. If you are giving the Eschew, Silent and Still feats (which would be seen as extra generous granting of feats by many), you might as well use the mechanic that is already in the rules for every other Innate Arcane Caster in the game. Only the Sorcerer is listed as an innate caster that doesn’t gain their “spells” as Spell-Like Abilities. Even a Dragon that “Casts as a Sorcerer” doesn’t need to use material components, somatic gestures, etc. I really think I am stuck on the Spell-Like Ability as the best way to portray “just raw power that they direct at will.”

If you are worried about those bonus feats overpowering the class, restrict the sorcerer's access to magic item creation feats. Making magic items istirkes me as something a trained proffesional does. Although he might learn them by taking a level in somethign else, expert maybe?

In my current build of the Alt-Sorcerer there are no options to take Item Creation feats as a part of the class like Wizards do. I don’t necessarily think they should be banned from them, since technically any caster can take them. However, I don’t think they should get them as part of the class. If they really want them they have to take them from their standard bonus feats. However, I might be persuaded to add this restriction if you can better explain why only a Sorcerer could not make them but something like a Druid or even an Adept can.

And/or get rid of the familiar. Which would be my solution I think.

This is dropped down to a “Sorcerer Ability” option. If the player really wants one they can get it but only if they meet the requisites. (Which if using the heritage option is the Arcane Experiment, Arcane Orphan, Child of Nature, or Sorcerous Family heritage.)

Yes to the d6 HD.

That’s a definite done. Still toying with the Median BAB though.

I also would remove Knowledge(arcana) from the skill list, but keep Spellcraft. Spellcraft can be an instictive instead of a learned skill. Add Intimidate, it makes more sense anyway, especially if this is an outsider who is making his way in the world.

The skills as I have them now are: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), Profession, Sense Motive and Survival.

Wanted them a bit more well rounded. They gain Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), Intimidate, and Sense Motive as social skills (for what truly social person doesn’t know their local area quite well as well as know people). Added Survival because many sorcerers are forced to survive on their own due to the wildness and “danger” of their youthful inability to control their magic.

Great thoughts, Khaalis, I will be interested in seeing your final product.

Let me know your thoughts so far, and I will see what I can do. Its not for everyone though I do want to create a replacement for the core class as well as the expanded “Flexible” version.

In my homebrew Alternate Class series (hope of a pdf publish some day?), I have been working with a basic skeleton on most all classes to allow for more flexibility in the classes using the Fighter as the Keystone of the concept of flexibility and the base core class as the Molding factor for the classes power and abilities. To give you an example, the Rogue. Not all Rogues are cut of the same cloth. Why would a professional Con Artist, Beggar, 2nd Story Man, etc. specialize in Sneak Attacks when that is more to the forte of the Thug, Enforcer, etc. Why would a Thug or Enforcer need to detect traps? What I have, instead of gaining say Sneak Attack +1d6 and Trapfingding at 1st level, the Rogue instead gains "2 Rogue Abilities". The abilities you can take are varied and wide spread but still equivalent to 1st level, as most abilities have prerequisites that prevent you from reaching an ability such as Evasion, before the Core Class would normally allow it (in the case of "Evasion (Ex): If the Rogue has 5 ranks or more in Tumble, they may gain the ability of Evasion.")

So that is the basic backdrop. Basically trying to keep the right balance on good classes, and slightly power up or power done some other classes to our feel of balance while allowing for bringing in source material from 3rd party sources that were felt to help the classes (like your article), and to allow more freedom in archetype creation without the need for custom classes or PrC’s.

For the Sorcerer I grant "Sorcerer Ability" at various levels. My most recent pass at the build (still needs playtest) has at 1st level: Heritage (Optional - if not used Sorcerer Ability) and Magic. Sorcerer Ability is then gained at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th. An example of said ability is the standard Familiar if you really want it.

That’s just some of the basics. Thoughts and comments are much appreciated.