Sorcerer, spellbook, scribe scroll

[Dandu]

I can give you a handful of 1st level spells (only from the PHB)

Thank you.

I was tempted to do it myself, but figured I shouldn't do his work for him. and the motivation kinda dropped off after he took his ball home.

The bolded ones I would find particularly useful - and yes there are usually better higher level spells - but the sorcerer can know even fewer of those than he can 1st level ones.

Hm. I think it may be possible for higher level spells to obsolete more than one lower level spell, though. Let's see if I can do this...

Shield: Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles.
The + AC is good, blocking MM is good. Mirror Image provides a better defense though.
Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
Same as above, really.
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
I can see how this could be useful, but I've never known anyone to take it ever (even as a wizard) because it's out shadowed by better first level spells on a pretty consistent basis. After you've loaded up on things like Identify, Nerveskitter, Grease, Mount, Invisible Servant, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person...
Identify: Determines properties of magic item.
Identifying is important, yes. Can you get by without it? Well, there's a cheap Wondrous Item to do it, as well as a skill trick, so... maybe?
Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly.
Eh. Warlocks have Fell Flight and Flee the Scene. Sorcerers have Fly, Alter Self, Web, Levitate, various teleportation spells, Solid Fog... there's a lot of ways to handle suddenly falling, and one of those spells should be known.
This is another spell that gets outclassed pretty frequently because chances are you will have a higher level spell that obsoletes it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, there will be spells you want to know that you don't have. Yes, they will be useful on the occasion. However, you'll probably get on fine without them.

 

[coyote6]

Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly.
Eh. Warlocks have Fell Flight and Flee the Scene. Sorcerers have Fly, Alter Self, Web, Levitate, various teleportation spells, Solid Fog...

None of those will save you if you didn't cast them already, unless you're falling at least 300 ft (if I recall the distance correctly), as you won't get a turn to cast before you go splat. Feather fall lets you cast out of turn, so it has applicability few other spells do.

Of course, a ring of feather fall isn't that expensive, and a scroll of feather fall isn't going to help much, unless you carry it around in your hand...

 

[Dandu]

None of those will save you if you didn't cast them already, unless you're falling at least 300 ft (if I recall the distance correctly)

150 feet, I think.

 

[irdeggman]

We also must remember that the OP's world is low magic so having a lot of magic items (even real common and useful ones like a ring of feather falling) is not a given.

The impression given was that he wanted to use the spell book to create scrolls because he couldn't readily acquire scrolls in the first place. So if you can easily get low level scrolls then really good magic items are probably even harder to find.

Personnally I think wands are better, especially since all you have to have is the spell on your spell list you don't need to be able to cast it normally.

 

[irdeggman]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, there will be spells you want to know that you don't have. Yes, they will be useful on the occasion. However, you'll probably get on fine without them.

Remember I said I had a warlock (which is why I choose the spells I did - and did not mention 0-level spells like "detect magic") and the OP's PC was straight classed.

Also what higher level spells do you give up to know the high level utility ones? A sorcerer knows fewer high level spells than he does lower level ones so they are at a greater premium as far as utility spells - and it is harder for him to "swap out" higher level ones as he learns new spell level spells.

 

[Dandu]

Also what higher level spells do you give up to know the high level utility ones?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Are you asking which higher level spells I forgo learning in order to learn higher level utility spells? Since they're both higher level spells, I wouldn't be giving up learning any higher level spells when I learn high level utility spells.

 

[irdeggman]

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Are you asking which higher level spells I forgo learning in order to learn higher level utility spells? Since they're both higher level spells, I wouldn't be giving up learning any higher level spells when I learn high level utility spells.

As I recall your main point against multiclassing was in the delaying of getting to higher level spells by not progressing as a sorcerer.

Well the other point becomes that a single level of wizard only gives you the ability to learn all 0 and 1st level wizard spells - you would not gain the ability to know any higher level spell and would be stuck with the limit on spells known as a sorcerer.

So given that a 20th level sorcerer can know:

0 level - 9
1st level - 5
2nd level - 5
3rd level - 4
4th level - 4
5th level - 4
6th level - 3
7th level - 3
8th level - 3
9th level - 3

Which high level sorcerer spells do you give up in order to learn the "better" utility ones that are necessary to replace the 1st level utility ones?

By giving up a level of sorcerer, at 19th level you would know:

0 level - 9*
1st level - 5*
2nd level - 5
3rd level - 4
4th level - 4
5th level - 4
6th level - 3
7th level - 3
8th level - 3
9th level - 2

* but you would be able to "know" all 0 level wizard spells (automatically) and "learn" all 1st level wizard spells.


So is the ability to get scrolls of all of the 1st (and 0) level "utility" spells worth dipping into wizard for a single level (and in the process gaining the scribe scrolls feat for free)?

The answer has to be "maybe" - it depends on the setting, the character (theme and roll in the party) and what the player wants to be able to do.

 

[Dandu]

So given that a 20th level sorcerer can know:

0 level - 9
1st level - 5
2nd level - 5
3rd level - 4
4th level - 4
5th level - 4
6th level - 3
7th level - 3
8th level - 3
9th level - 3

Which high level sorcerer spells do you give up in order to learn the "better" utility ones that are necessary to replace the 1st level utility ones?

You're not giving up high level spells if you're learning high level utility spells! They're both high level spell! You are not giving up high level spells!

I still not sure what you mean, so I'm going to say things and hope they're in the right ballpark.

Major Image > Silent Image in utility.
Shapechange > Pretty much anything. Can be used to get Tongues as a Succubus, and +10 to Disguise. Well, among other things...
Alter Self > Disguise Self and other stuff
Fly > Feather Fall

You don't even have to give anything up if you take Limited Wish and Limited Wish for scrolls and profit.

By giving up a level of sorcerer, at 19th level you would know:

0 level - 9*
1st level - 5*
2nd level - 5
3rd level - 4
4th level - 4
5th level - 4
6th level - 3
7th level - 3
8th level - 3
9th level - 2

* but you would be able to "know" all 0 level wizard spells (automatically) and "learn" all 1st level wizard spells.

So the question is if one 9th level spell is worth knowledge of all cantrips and 1st level spells?

Yeah, that's no question at all.

So is the ability to get scrolls of all of the 1st (and 0) level "utility" spells worth dipping into wizard for a single level (and in the process gaining the scribe scrolls feat for free)?

Let me just say that you named first level spells that you'd find useful on occasion, but they weren't vital, were they?

 

[irdeggman]

You're not giving up high level spells if you're learning high level utility spells! They're both high level spell! You are not giving up high level spells!

You are giving up other spells to gain the "utility" spells.

Higher level damage spells have a much greater bang for the buck and there are more of them.

Low level spells tend to be of more utility use than damage. And saving throws tend to not matter with utility spells whiile they do with damage ones.

Major Image > Silent Image in utility.

so you will trade in one of your 4 3rd level spells known (instead of dispel magic, fireball, lightning bolt, haste, fly, etc. in order to get a "better" silent image.

Shapechange > Pretty much anything. Can be used to get Tongues as a Succubus, and +10 to Disguise. Well, among other things...

No argument on Shapechange it is one of the "manadatory" spells to learn as quickly as possible for too many reasons. But it is a 9th level spell and a sorcerer would have to be 18th level to learn it. How long should someone wait for general utility spells that could be gotten much, much earlier.

Alter Self > Disguise Self and other stuff

yes and then you must choose which 2nd level spell not to know. Not as many offensive second level spells, but a lot of "buffs" start showing up then as well as invisibility.

Fly > Feather Fall

Won't save you from falling unless you are falling a relatively long distance. Feather fall is an immediate action spell - and the rules on scrolls is that it takes as long to cast as the normal spell. So it is potentially much more useful - but better to actually "know" than to use as a scroll since you would have to have the scroll already out in order to get the immediate action benefit for casting.

You don't even have to give anything up if you take Limited Wish and Limited Wish for scrolls and profit.

a 7th and 9th level spell (you won't learn both and would have to be 14th level to learn limited wish and couldn't swap it out until 18th level when you learn wish to replace it.

So the question is if one 9th level spell is worth knowledge of all cantrips and 1st level spells?

Yeah, that's no question at all.

Yup it sure is a bargain isn't it?

Let me just say that you named first level spells that you'd find useful on occasion, but they weren't vital, were they?

For our game some actually would have been extremely useful - comprehend languages for instance. No spell is actually "vital" (including high level ones) if the DM is sharp and can roll with the circumstances.

 

[Dandu]

Higher level damage spells have a much greater bang for the buck and there are more of them.

I've always considered most damage spells to be meh, and never take more than a handful.

so you will trade in one of your 4 3rd level spells known (instead of dispel magic, fireball, lightning bolt, haste, fly, etc. in order to get a "better" silent image.

You underestimate the power of a well placed illusion.

No argument on Shapechange it is one of the "manadatory" spells to learn as quickly as possible for too many reasons. But it is a 9th level spell and a sorcerer would have to be 18th level to learn it. How long should someone wait for general utility spells that could be gotten much, much earlier.

If you wanted earlier options you could have asked for them directly. As is, you gave me a level 20 sorcerer's spells known and asked me to give examples of higher level spells doing the work of lower level ones.
Lower level ways to get utility spells come from Summon Monster spells,Lesser Planar Binding, and Polymorph. Happy?
(Interesting: SMIII and the BoED can result in a Coure Eladrin which has tongues. Among other things.)

yes and then you must choose which 2nd level spell not to know. Not as many offensive second level spells, but a lot of "buffs" start showing up then as well as invisibility.

Alter Self is a buff, and more versatile than Invisibility. Since it's one of the most powerful second level spells ever, I do not share your opinion that it is somehow causing the character to "give up" something.

Won't save you from falling unless you are falling a relatively long distance. Feather fall is an immediate action spell - and the rules on scrolls is that it takes as long to cast as the normal spell. So it is potentially much more useful - but better to actually "know" than to use as a scroll since you would have to have the scroll already out in order to get the immediate action benefit for casting.

You also have to draw the scroll, which is not going to be an immediate action.

a 7th and 9th level spell (you won't learn both and would have to be 14th level to learn limited wish and couldn't swap it out until 18th level when you learn wish to replace it.

What are you on about? I only talked about Limited Wish in that sentence. Where are you getting the 9th level spell Wish from?

For our game some actually would have been extremely useful - comprehend languages for instance. No spell is actually "vital" (including high level ones) if the DM is sharp and can roll with the circumstances.

Does the opposite hold true as well? Ie, if the DM is a clod, then no amount of Comprehending Languages will get you the information you need?