Sorcerers and Spell Components

[FCWesel]

Does it make sense for sorcerers and thier "magic blood" to need spell components? Those of you who decide that they don't need them in your games, how do you balance out the loss/cost of them?

 

[gfunk]

Many people would agree that it does not make sense for sorcerers to use spell components.

There are a couple of options:

1) Give sorcerers the Eschew Material Components for free so that they can cast spells with a gp cost of 1 or less for free.

2) Allow sorcerers to trade XP for gp value of expensive material components (1 XP = 5 gp).

 

[KarinsDad]

Does it make sense for sorcerers and thier "magic blood" to need spell components? Those of you who decide that they don't need them in your games, how do you balance out the loss/cost of them?

Sorcerers and Bards do not use material components in my campaign with the exception of expensive material components (although that does not make a lot of sense, I prefer it over XP).

To balance it out, I allow other spell casters to "swap" a current spell in a spell slot for an equal or lower level spell with a DC 20 + spell level (of spell slot) Concentration roll. This requires an action that takes an entire round to perform and which can be disrupted by things that would disrupt casting a one round spell (e.g. damage would require a second concentration roll, etc.).

So far, out of about 40 gaming hours and 3 attempts to swap a spell by PCs (level 4 at the moment), only 1 spell was successfully swapped (one higher level NPC also swapped out a spell successfully). So, I have not found it to be abusive yet.

 

[Urbannen]

The way sorcerers are described in the flavor text, it doesn't make sense for them their spells to have components. Components also means verbal, somatic, focus, and experience, not just materials. Giving them Eschew Materials doesn't solve the issue. It doesn't make any more sense for a sorcerer to need a material component than for a sorcerer to wake up one morning knowing the complete words and gestures of a wizard spell. And sorcerers know all the words and gestures necessary for a wizard to prepare a spell, since a wizard can learn a spell scribed by a sorcerer.

The most logical way to solve this is to give sorcerers spell-like abilities rather than spells.

 

[Ranes]

I think it does make sense for sorcerers to require the same material components as wizards. The wizard studies how to get the magic out of the component. The sorcerer intuits this. But both require the component to work the magic, unless one of them possesses Eschew Materials.

For me, the real value of trivial material components is measured by those rare occasions when magic user and component are separated, for whatever reason, however briefly. I don't want to hand a free feat to sorcerers that would deprive me of any opportunity to exploit a factor that could otherwise benefit the game by the drama it would generate.

But not everyone's after that angle.

 

[Ranes]

I like your idea, Urbannen, of substituting spell-like abilities for spells. It's semantically cute but I think it also makes sorcerers slightly more powerful. But again, I don't have a problem with sorcerers waking up and knowing some piece of draconic. There is something magical about sorcerers and so it is, of course, with the language used to understand and work magic. So the sorcerer grows up speaking in tongues, having dreams or visions, in which magic calls to him and gradually makes itself known to him. Unbeckoned, ancient words take form in his mind and describe their ideas of themselves to him, until they take form by expressing themselves through him.

Or not.

 

[Thanee]

Lil sidenote:

So, I have not found it to be abusive yet.

That sounds quite good for higher levels, tho, where that DC is quite manageable. Actually a bit too good. It makes wizards the better sorcerers then with their much greater spell selection. I'd probably limit it to some (very few, like 2 or 3) swaps per day and only allow lower level spells to get swapped in. Just something to think about!

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

That sounds quite good for higher levels, tho, where that DC is quite manageable. Actually a bit too good. It makes wizards the better sorcerers then with their much greater spell selection. I'd probably limit it to some (very few, like 2 or 3) swaps per day and only allow lower level spells to get swapped in. Just something to think about!

I'm not sure.

It already has a few limitations.

1) It takes one round to swap, so opponents can easily attack a caster doing this and force multiple concentration checks. My experience with NPC casters casting Summon Monster spells is that they rarely get them off if they are in the line of sight/effect of PC archers and/or spell casters. Area affect spells are the bane of this ability. I also have another house rule where wounded and just wounded characters often have negatives to their die rolls, hence, the chances of making the roll once wounded decreases.

2) It takes two rounds to actually get off the spell cast, so Sorcerers and Bards will still be faster. Sure, you get the spell you want (if you make the roll), but in the meantime, two rounds have gone by. That extra round in combat doing nothing can make or break a combat.

3) Out of combat, this is only a little helpful for Wizards. They can already keep slots open and study whatever they wish (without a concentration roll) out of combat.

4) Most of my players running spell casters do not take concentration as a skill every level. They are focused a little more on knowledge skills and spell craft.

5) We play only once per week. Typically, PCs do not get much above 10th level before the campaign self destructs (someone moves out of town, someone wants to DM a new campaign, something else comes up). So, although I could see high level PCs using/abusing this a lot if they took a lot of concentration, I doubt it will come up in my game that much. It might. Time will tell. If it does, I'll just bump up the DC to 20 + 2 * spell level to prevent higher level spells from being easily swapped without penalizing the lower level spells that much. In fact, I might just do that with my new 3.5 house rules that I'm about to distribute to the group.

 

[Thanee]

3) Out of combat, this is only a little helpful for Wizards. They can already keep slots open and study whatever they wish (without a concentration roll) out of combat.

I think this is where I see the main advantage. It's especially good with all those utility spells. You can max out your prepared spells with combat stuff and just swap in the utility spells as needed.

You usually need to keep slots open, which is no real problem at higher levels, as you tend to have enough of them, but you also need 15 minutes of rest, which often is a problem. A couple rounds, you almost always have, but 15 minutes of rest are an entirely different matter.

As a Wizard, I always assume maximum ranks in Concentration, they have enough skill points usually, thanks to their high Int.

Of course, if you don't have it, you cannot make full use of that swapping, but considering, that Concentration is even more useful that way, than usual, it really becomes a mandatory choice for an adventuring Wizard.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

I think this is where I see the main advantage. It's especially good with all those utility spells. You can max out your prepared spells with combat stuff and just swap in the utility spells as needed.

In theory, this is correct. In practice, it may not be. You cannot swap into an empty spell slot (sorry, but I forgot to mention that). What this means in theory for Wizards is that they study most of their spells and have few slots open and swap in utility spells as needed. What this means in practice (at least from what I have seen) is that once a slot has a spell in it, that spell often tends to get cast sooner or later during the day (except at much higher levels where you have so many spells). Hence, the higher level spell slots are sometimes not available to be swapped, especially later in the adventuring day.

If the Wizard keeps slots open, then he is often forced to use other, sometimes less desirable, spells to accomplish his goals. In this case, he ends up having to take out the 15 minutes to fill a given slot anyway.

As a Wizard, I always assume maximum ranks in Concentration, they have enough skill points usually, thanks to their high Int.

Yes, you could easily do that and probably do.

But, with the revised rule (DC 20 + 2 * spell level), what this means is that at first level, your chance to succeed with your best spell with an 18 CON is 35%. At seventeenth level, your chance to succeed with your best spell with an 18 CON is 35%. Even if you throw in the Skill Focus feat and a Bears Endurance spell, your chance goes up to 60% for your best spell at most levels. This does not take into account (in my game) being injured which can drop this chance by as much as 25% (typically in the worst of conditions). So, you kind of have to take both house rules into account.

With more typical caster situations (16 CON + max Concentration + no Skill Focus + no magic dedicated to this), the chances for your highest level spells (at the level you acquire them) drop to the 5% to 30% range (depending on how injured you are).

Sure, high level Wizards would be very good at swapping in low level spells. But, over the lifetime of the Wizard, even one with a maxxed out Concentration, it will fail often enough that most players will not do it on a regular basis, at least for their higher level spells. Is it really worth it to have a 30% chance to swap out your only 9th level spell at 17th level (and take up a round doing it)? Usually not for most players.

I also view this ability as making a spell caster more of a target since injuring them while they are doing this is a double dipper. You injure them like normal, but you can also prevent them from being successful with it (and they lose the spell). Plus, at higher level where the damage done is greater, the chances of success of doing this in combat drops even more (with my other house rule).

Out of combat, sure the chances are not that bad, especially for a casters lower level spells.