Sorcerers should use Con not Cha

[Grimmjow]

nice i got it cool thanks!

 

[Grimmjow]

Constitution is endurance, health, fortitude and stamina. I don't really see how being healthy or tough would make someone a better sorcerer.

The way i see it, youd have to have strong and healthy inorder to pull magic out of your own self

 

[Underman]

Love the idea of a Con sorcerer, who drains from his own stamina to power spells (sorta like Raistlin but without spellbooks) as much as the fighter draws upon his strength to wield weapons.

One reason I rarely played sorcerers was because of the Cha thing. It bugged me. Yes, yes, I know Cha is a measure of force of personality as well as social leverage.. but the problem is that those two qualities are conflated within the same ability score. Every time I look at the Cha score of my sorcerer, I get this weird (someone from the other thread will harrass me now) 'dissociation' between how I imagined the character concept and how I know for 25 years what things Cha represents and that I'm ignoring half of them when I roleplay a sorcerer with poor social skills.

So a million +1 to the OP if I had a million +1s.

 

[variant]

I wouldn't mind a Con spellcaster, but I don't think it should be the sorcerer. Maybe a defiler type class or a chosen type class, where a powerful entity or an artifact infuses the player with power.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I'd welcome Sorcerers being based on Constitution, as it would remove the notion that somehow Sorcerers are attractive and cool to be around. Having dragon-blood could warp the character in some very unsettling ways - scaly skin, for example.

I really would like the Sorcerer Class worked on a lot in this regard. Fantasy Sorcerers come in all shapes and sizes - and it would be nice to play a really freaky Sorcerer as an option - with reference to the concept of Chaos warping found in other fantasy works. Indeed, I'd like the new Sorcerer to be based on Chaos casting, as a theme (wish!).

If any Class could be described as a Charisma based caster, then that would be the Bard, clearly.

 

[variant]

I'd welcome Sorcerers being based on Constitution, as it would remove the notion that somehow Sorcerers are attractive and cool to be around. Having dragon-blood could warp the character in some very unsettling ways - scaly skin, for example.

I really would like the Sorcerer Class worked on a lot in this regard. Fantasy Sorcerers come in all shapes and sizes - and it would be nice to play a really freaky Sorcerer as an option - with reference to the concept of Chaos warping found in other fantasy works. Indeed, I'd like the new Sorcerer to be based on Chaos casting, as a theme (wish!).

If any Class could be described as a Charisma based caster, then that would be the Bard, clearly.

I disagree. For one, we are talking about D&D, not other fantasy sorcerers, and in D&D the sorcerer is a Charisma based spellcaster with a certain theme. Who wants a Strength based Wizard? Same thing. Plus, no, the notion that sorcerers are attractive and cool to be around doesn't exist. The idea that they have a high amount of magnetism to them does, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I disagree. For one, we are talking about D&D, not other fantasy sorcerers, and in D&D the sorcerer is a Charisma based spellcaster with a certain theme. Who wants a Strength based Wizard? Same thing. Plus, no, the notion that sorcerers are attractive and cool to be around doesn't exist. The idea that they have a high amount of magnetism to them does, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Tangential Rant below:

>>>>You know I have to say I am getting tired of the argument that D&D has it's own fantasy tropes - it really doesn't, or at least shouldn't. D&D is not it's own genre. D&D is a generic fantasy game that ought to be able to lift ideas from any source and not just create artificial limitations that adhere only to itself<<<<<

Huhuump...OK, back to the debate.

The Sorcerer was designed in 3e basically as an alternative casting mechanic to a 'Vancian-based' Wizard, but I never felt it really fleshed out it's theme in any significant way. Indeed, as the argument has gone before, there was only so much differece between the Sorcerer and Wizard Classes in those editions that could legitimately have been handled solely with applied Feats (say, a Spontaneous Casting Feat, etc).

I'd like to see some clear blue water between these Classes, and actually develop a Sorcerer that has some narrative distinction in the game. I'd like to see it reflect fantasy literature and movie sources, and actually provide an archetypal character option that isn't already provided by Wizard, beyond crude mechanical alternatives.

I'd like to see Sorcerers that are weird and dangerous, weilding eldrich energies that other casters wouldn't even dare touch. I'd like to see Sorcerers that you'd be worried about introducing your mother to. I want Sorcerers to be cool, not kewl.

 

[Underman]

Also, not to distract from the above points, but if the sorcerer is so Cha-based, why does the playtest frequently used the words "will" and "willpower"? If willpower was so important, I want to use Wisdom and not Charisma (if I don't get to use Con).

Here it gets interesting. The SRD define "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, etc..." as it was classically described in D&D.

However, the 'How to Play' pdf no longer includes willpower under Wisdom. Coincidence?

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Tangential Rant below:

>>>>You know I have to say I am getting tired of the argument that D&D has it's own fantasy tropes - it really doesn't, or at least shouldn't. D&D is not it's own genre. D&D is a generic fantasy game that ought to be able to lift ideas from any source and not just create artificial limitations that adhere only to itself<<<<<

Huhuump...OK, back to the debate.

The Sorcerer was designed in 3e basically as an alternative casting mechanic to a 'Vancian-based' Wizard, but I never felt it really fleshed out it's theme in any significant way. Indeed, as the argument has gone before, there was only so much differece between the Sorcerer and Wizard Classes in those editions that could legitimately have been handled solely with applied Feats (say, a Spontaneous Casting Feat, etc).

I'd like to see some clear blue water between these Classes, and actually develop a Sorcerer that has some narrative distinction in the game. I'd like to see it reflect fantasy literature and movie sources, and actually provide an archetypal character option that isn't already provided by Wizard, beyond crude mechanical alternatives.

Part of the problem is that the English words Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard are all synonyms. They all mean to an extent magic user. Outside of the limited amount fiction that wants to make a distinction between them, they get used interchangeably.

What "fiction" or "pop culture" would you use to define them.

I'd like to see Sorcerers that are weird and dangerous, weilding eldrich energies that other casters wouldn't even dare touch. I'd like to see Sorcerers that you'd be worried about introducing your mother to. I want Sorcerers to be cool, not kewl.

That sounds a lot like what the Warlock's style currently is.

 

[variant]

Tangential Rant below:

>>>>You know I have to say I am getting tired of the argument that D&D has it's own fantasy tropes - it really doesn't, or at least shouldn't. D&D is not it's own genre. D&D is a generic fantasy game that ought to be able to lift ideas from any source and not just create artificial limitations that adhere only to itself<<<<<

It does have its own tropes because characters should at least resemble themselves when being transitioned from one edition to the next.