Sorcerers should use Con not Cha

[ComradeGnull]

Also, not to distract from the above points, but if the sorcerer is so Cha-based, why does the playtest frequently used the words "will" and "willpower"? If willpower was so important, I want to use Wisdom and not Charisma (if I don't get to use Con).

Here it gets interesting. The SRD define "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, etc..." as it was classically described in D&D.

However, the 'How to Play' pdf no longer includes willpower under Wisdom. Coincidence?

Yes, it seems like with 5e we open yet another chapter in the ongoing 'what exactly do Wis and Cha correspond to?' wars. WotC has seemed to have been of slightly different minds about this between 3e, 4e, and today (case in point: Goblins had a bonus to Cha in 4e. Entirely made sense in the context of 4e powers, and I can even see a lore argument for it, but entirely contrary to the interpretation of Charisma in previous editions. If Goblins are unusually charismatic, we are officially through the looking glass). The whole Wisdom == Perception thing also seems to be getting a slight rethink, with Int being used for a number of perception-type tasks in the latest playtest adventure.

I think the simplest interpretation is that Cha and Wis == Str & Con for social combat. If you are good at getting your way (whether by bullying, whining, debating, or lying) in social situations, you have high Cha. If you are good at reading people, spotting lies, standing up to bullys, or ignoring whiners, you have high Wis. So Cha covers dozens of different forms of 'social leverage' you can apply, while Wis touches on willpower, perception, judgement, and intuition.

Tangential Rant below:

>>>>You know I have to say I am getting tired of the argument that D&D has it's own fantasy tropes - it really doesn't, or at least shouldn't. D&D is not it's own genre. D&D is a generic fantasy game that ought to be able to lift ideas from any source and not just create artificial limitations that adhere only to itself<<<<<

Huhuump...OK, back to the debate.

The Sorcerer was designed in 3e basically as an alternative casting mechanic to a 'Vancian-based' Wizard, but I never felt it really fleshed out it's theme in any significant way. Indeed, as the argument has gone before, there was only so much differece between the Sorcerer and Wizard Classes in those editions that could legitimately have been handled solely with applied Feats (say, a Spontaneous Casting Feat, etc).

I'd like to see some clear blue water between these Classes, and actually develop a Sorcerer that has some narrative distinction in the game. I'd like to see it reflect fantasy literature and movie sources, and actually provide an archetypal character option that isn't already provided by Wizard, beyond crude mechanical alternatives.

I'd like to see Sorcerers that are weird and dangerous, weilding eldrich energies that other casters wouldn't even dare touch. I'd like to see Sorcerers that you'd be worried about introducing your mother to. I want Sorcerers to be cool, not kewl.

Not sure that I agree in general that D&D doesn't have- or shouldn't have- its own tropes and 'versions' of things, but I will say that I see the Sorcerer as being one of the more ill-defined (and thus subject to redefinition) of the classes. 3e was quite flavorless- there was some grumbling about 'dragon blood', but really they were just alt-mechanic Wizards. 4e added some themes and gave them a different role, but still pretty generic arcane blasters were the result. PF's bloodlines with their associated skills, powers, and spells have done the most to define what a sorcerer is for me- I found the class pretty flavorless until I saw Paizo's version of it.

I'd welcome Sorcerers being based on Constitution, as it would remove the notion that somehow Sorcerers are attractive and cool to be around. Having dragon-blood could warp the character in some very unsettling ways - scaly skin, for example.

I really would like the Sorcerer Class worked on a lot in this regard. Fantasy Sorcerers come in all shapes and sizes - and it would be nice to play a really freaky Sorcerer as an option - with reference to the concept of Chaos warping found in other fantasy works. Indeed, I'd like the new Sorcerer to be based on Chaos casting, as a theme (wish!).

If any Class could be described as a Charisma based caster, then that would be the Bard, clearly.

In terms of giving the Sorc a little more flavor and creating some cool options, I would really like to see different bloodlines relying on different attributes, to steal a page from both Pathfinder and some of the 4e specializations. A Chaos or Dragonblooded sorcerer could easily have Con be prime, but a Divine or Infernal blooded sorcerer might use Cha or Wis. A Fey Blood sorcerer could have Dex be their primary (or something).

Also, why 1) limit Sorcerer's to Arcane magic or 2) create a whole separate class to do non-vancian divine magic? Give Sorcerers a couple levels of specialization- you are either Arcane Blooded or you are Divine Blooded, and that choice determines whether you pull from the Wizard or Cleric spell list. After you pick one of the big two, you can select Dragon Blooded, Chaos Blooded, Fey Blooded, Infernal Blooded, Angelic Blooded, etc., to determine the specific focus of your arcane or divine bloodline.

 

[Underman]

However, the 'How to Play' pdf no longer includes willpower under Wisdom. Coincidence?

...while Wis touches on willpower, perception, judgement, and intuition.

Unless that's a typo, I think that, in 5E, Wis does NOT touch upon willpower.

I think willpower is now divorced from ability scores and translocated to willpower points that the Sorcerer uses.

I assume this because "willpower" is NOT included under the Wisdom ability score description in the playtest and IS included under the sorcerer class (in the form of willpower points).

 

[ComradeGnull]

Unless that's a typo, I think that, in 5E, Wis does NOT touch upon willpower.

I think willpower is now divorced from ability scores and translocated to willpower points that the Sorcerer uses.

I assume this because "willpower" is NOT included under the Wisdom ability score description in the playtest and IS included under the sorcerer class (in the form of willpower points).

You're correct- just not sure how much sense it makes in the wider scheme of things. I think willpower could legitimately be assigned to be a function of either Wis or Cha or both- historically it has been Wis, which I think makes ever so slightly more sense- but the current movement seems to be towards making it a function of Cha, thus the Sorcerer scheme.

 

[Underman]

You're correct- just not sure how much sense it makes in the wider scheme of things. I think willpower could legitimately be assigned to be a function of either Wis or Cha or both- historically it has been Wis, which I think makes ever so slightly more sense- but the current movement seems to be towards making it a function of Cha, thus the Sorcerer scheme.

Ya, I haven't decided it I like it or not. My gut feeling is that willpower shouldn't be assigned to Cha either. One could make the case that willpower is just as much assignable to Con or hit points as much any other stat. So I'm thinking so far that divorcing willpower from ability scores is actually a good thing.

 

[TwoSix]

Ideally, willpower would be divorced from stats, and instead be a pool of points ranging from 1 to 10.

 

[Ahnehnois]

My perception of what Cha is is that it is "mental Con" (and Int is "mental Str" and Wis is "mental Dex"). I don't think that sorcerers should be inherently tough or in any way physically powerful; weak spellcasters with good minds are the way to go.

Also, on a system level, it's important to have Cha-based classes, which without the sorcerer would not be much (bard and maybe cleric and paladin).

 

[variant]

I am not sure I like the idea of 'willpower' under Charisma. I would have to hear the reasoning.

My perception of what Cha is is that it is "mental Con" (and Int is "mental Str" and Wis is "mental Dex"). I don't think that sorcerers should be inherently tough or in any way physically powerful; weak spellcasters with good minds are the way to go.

Also, on a system level, it's important to have Cha-based classes, which without the sorcerer would not be much (bard and maybe cleric and paladin).

Actually, thinking about it, I agree in some sense.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I am of a different opinion. I think Int is closer to mental Dex and Wis closer to mental strength. Mental agility is how quick your mind works, which is more related to Int.

Nothing's concrete here. My reasoning is this:

Your intelligence is your raw brainpower, as your strength is your raw physical power.

Your wisdom is how you react to the world around you and control and utilize your intelligence, while your dexterity is also your reactions (reflexes) and control (coordination)

Your charisma (the willpower-y interpretation) is how resilient you are mentally, as constitution is physical resilience.

***

I don't think it's a coincidence the three physical and three mentak scores are arranged in the order they are, but that's just my unofficial take on it.

 

[variant]

Nothing's concrete here. My reasoning is this:

Your intelligence is your raw brainpower, as your strength is your raw physical power.

Your wisdom is how you react to the world around you and control and utilize your intelligence, while your dexterity is also your reactions (reflexes) and control (coordination)

Your charisma (the willpower-y interpretation) is how resilient you are mentally, as constitutoin is physical resilience.

***

I don't think it's a coincidence the three physical and three mentak scores are arranged in the order they are, but that's just my unofficial take onit.

Yep, I edited my post. I was thinking about it and dissecting what the ability scores represented over time of D&D and I do agree. Intelligence is like how much pure knowledge you can hold in your mind (Strength), Wisdom is how quickly your mind can work (Dexterity), and your Charisma is your sense of presence and thus your mental resilience (Constitution).

On that, I think willpower could fit with Charisma.

 

[Underman]

I think I remember previous versions of D&D that gave examples of characters that are low in Cha but high in Wis/willpower, or high in Cha but low in Wis/willpower as a means of contrast. I could be wrong; it's a very vague memory. Either way, my gut feeling is that charisma is conflated with willpower.