Sorceror, Bard, Warlock: Of What Value is Change?

[Kurotowa]

Huh. My text here states: "At any level when a Warlock learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with an invocation of the same or lower grade."

Now, granted, the example text calls out levels 6, 11, and 16, which lends itself to your statement (and the text under Special for those levels actually says "New Invocation (X,X,X)" where X is least, greater, and dark), but the next column, Invocations Known, goes from 1 to 2 at 2nd level, which indicates he learns a new invocation at 2nd level. Since that's a level where he learns a new invocation, he can replace his 1st level invocation with one of the same or lower grade, which is fixed at least right now.

It's the difference between spells known and access to a new spell level, to put it in sorcerer terms. I followed the warlock arguements on the WotC boards some because I think the class has potential, and this one has come up a lot. Luckily, the book's writer has shown up to put a few questions to rest. Here's the original giant thread and the new summery thread. From it,

Q: At what levels can a Warlock swap out an invocation with a different invocation of equal or lesser grade? Anytime a new invocation is learned, ie 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15, 16, 18 and 20, or anytime a new invocation grade is achieved, ie 6, 11 and 16.

A: I'm pretty sure that this is intended to say: "At any level where you gain access to a new power level of invocations," meaning 6, 11, 16.

 

[Funeris]

What if...

Ok, lets give the sorc the ability to learn new spells. Its going to cost him though.
It will cost: time (to practice) and XP(manipulating his inner ability).

So the time question:

Perhaps 2.5 hrs per spell level. A cantrip (.5 spell level) will take an hour and a quarter to figure out. A 9th level spell will thusly take 22.5 hours of alone time. This time period cannot be interrupted. You could change this amount to days if you'd like. It may make more sense. And if you did that...then a cantrip would take a day and a quarter (30 hours) to figure out. Whereas a 9th level spell would then take 540 hours of study and practice. The problem I see with it as a day calculation is if you were to study/practice for 8 hours a day, it would take 2 months and a week (uninterrupted) approximately to learn the spell. Although, for a 9th level spell maybe that is what is required.

XP Cost:

Cost increases per spell naturally. Using a formula of: 5 * Min. Ability Score for spell * spell level squared. This makes the XP cost for a cantrip just 13 (rounded up from 12.5). A 9th level spell is going to cost 7,695 XPs to learn. That's not bad. You'd have to be halfway past 18th level before you could attempt to pick up another one. And the more spells you learn along the way, the farther behind your compatriots you will be. So, I think this figure is valid. Although you could double this amount to make it exceedingly harsh.

DC:

To learn a spell requires a DC. The check is adjusted by your Charisma modifier. DC = 20 + Spell Level. So, 20 for a cantrip and 29 for a ninth level spell. Maybe this is overly harsh, but it significantly limits the ability to learn higher level spells.

The XP cost is spent whether or not the DC is a success. So if you can't learn the spell, you still lose the XP for an attempt (not to mention the time studying/practicing). And as always, you cannot spend so much XP that you would drop a class level.

ALSO: This does not increase his Spell per day rate at all. Just gives him more spell versatility.

If anyone is interested, I have a spreadsheet I created for this option that I can upload. I'd also like feedback, if you don't mind. Any feedback, whether its: I'm stupid and I should just stick to writing Story Hours...or I'm a genius and you plan on definitely using this method. Just let me know

P.S. I reserve the right to publish this system.

~Fune

 

[Funeris]

Thinking about it...maybe 20 + spell level is way too difficult. Maybe 15 instead? makes it more...probable. While keeping it difficult. (A +4 char. modifier is the min to cast a 9th level spell)...so you'd still have to roll a 20 to at least learn the 9th (this is assuming no magic modifier to charisma). Whaddya think?

 

[Funeris]

Anyone?

 

[Koewn]

It's the difference between spells known and access to a new spell level, to put it in sorcerer terms. I followed the warlock arguements on the WotC boards some because I think the class has potential, and this one has come up a lot. Luckily, the book's writer has shown up to put a few questions to rest. Here's the original giant thread and the new summery thread. From it,

Thanks for that, Kurotowa. I'm awful suprised something of that magnitude didn't make it into the errata from 3/16 for CA.

Koewn

 

[Hypersmurf]

OK; let's go ahead and shift this to House Rules since it's heading that way, if a kind moderator could please.

Done.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Rystil Arden]

Anyone?

This is way too powerful. 50 XP and a trivial amount for another 1st-level spell? Your system makes sorcerers much better than wizards, since they now reproduce the wizard's ability to learn new spells (albeit at a greater cost, but not an order of magnitude greater), and then they can throw that entire arsenal of spells at their enemies spontaneously.

 

[Funeris]

What would you suggest as a compromise, Rystil?

I had someone else suggest 200XP x Spell Level x Rareness (Scale of 1-10). What I didn't like about this is if you want a 9th level spell (most of which are rare in my homebrew if not extraordinarily so) then for a sorc to learn another 9th level spell, he'll be spending 200XP x 9 x 10 = 18,000 XP. Which is exactly what he needs to reach Level 19. I thought maybe it was too harsh.

I also tinkered with doubling my formula above...so 10 x min. ability score x spell level squared. This doubles the above amounts...making the cost of the 9th level spells around 15,000 xp. Your 1st level spells then would be 110 XP. 2nd Level = 480 XPs...and so on and so forth.

I don't know that you would think this any better. Rystil, what do you do in your campaigns with sorcs? Or maybe (like me) you don't have anyone playing a sorc cuz they're just not versatile enough.

Sorry if this ended up being a hi-jack. Didn't intend it that way originally.

~Fune

 

[wuyanei]

FWIW, I've adopted a house rule that allows a "Ritual of Spellswap" for all spontaneous caster classes. The basic idea is that a sorcerer/bard should never be allowed to optimize his spells for a battle, but he should be able to tweak his spells to better fit a personal theme (pyro-, cryo-, illusion, summoning etc.) or a certain campaign style (underwater, cold, desert, undead, outsider etc.) if neccessary. This adds a degree of freedom to both the player and the DM (now you can throw underwater campaigns at the pyromancer with abandon. Under the 3.0 rules, that would have been unfair character screwage), yet still preserves the 'versatility vs raw power' contrast between the wizard and the sorcerer.

In this version, swapping a 1st level spell costs about as much as casting a limited wish, while swapping a 9th level spell costs half a wish spell (plus 18 days). As a bonus, it encourages sorcerers and bards to stock up on spellbooks (book of songs?) and scrolls as well, which I find thematically pleasing.

Ritual of Spellswap: A sorcerer can perform a ritual in which he cleanses one of his spells and discovers another in its place. A sorcerer chooses one spell he knows and permanently forgets (loses) it. In its place, he gains another spell from the same spell list and level. Performing the ritual takes two days per swapped spell level, requires materials costing 500 gp per spell level, and the sorcerer must pay 250 XP per spell level at the conclusion of the ritual.

So, to answer your original question: approximately 2 days / spell level, plus a stiff XP cost.