Sorceror build question

So, basically, the attack has to carry the Name "melee basic attack" or be explicitly excepted as such in order to be used as an OA, and being a Basic Attack of attack type Melee isn't good enough to qualify as a Melee Basic Attack? It's a square/rectangle/rhombus thing?

-Dan'L


If by square/rectangle/rhombus you mean that a basic attack is a parallelogram, a ranged basic attack is a rectangle, and a melee basic attack is a rhombus, then yes. Acid Orb used with Reaper's Touch is a square. Acid Orb with Sorcerous Blade Channeling is rectangle that is not a square.

Acid orb used by a sorcerer with Sorcerous Blade Channeling is a ranged basic attack. It is a basic attack. It is not a melee basic attack. I don't care what kind of attack it is, melee, ranged, area, or close, no rule lets it be a melee basic attack. Acid Orb can be used as a ranged basic attack, and nowhere does it say it can be used as a melee basic attack, even if it can be used as a melee power. The funny part is, if a power grants a basic attack or ranged basic attack, you can use Acid Orb as a melee attack.

And I'm done. You seem to be adamant in your position.
 

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A. If you are a Sorcerer [PHB2 page 136] with "Acid Orb" [PHB2 page 138]
B. If you have "Sorcerous Blade Channeling" [PHB2 page 189]
C. If you are using a "Dagger Implement"

This power would read as fallows.
1. Acid Orb
2. Sorcerer Attack 1
3. At-will * Acid, Arcane, Implement
4. Standard Action
5. Ranged 20 or Melee 1
6. Target: one creature
7. Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
8. Hit: 1d10+Charisma modifier acid damage.
9. level 21: 2d10+Charisma modifier acid damage.
10. Special: This power can be used as a ranged basic attack.

There you have it and nowhere in that power dose it give a "melee basic attack". Although you can now make Melee attacks with this power you can not make basic melee attacks with it.
I understand that the power itself does not give a "melee basic attack." But this really only addresses one third of the ABC list you present. My question was does the feat affect the ranged nature of the power to the extent that it affects the "Special" clause (10). I have given my reasoning on this in that previous post, and it encompasses the effects of the feat and the power working in tandem; I am interested in insight that addresses the two together.
-Dan'L

I. In order to have "This power would read as fallows." you must satisfy all the requirements of (A of ABC), (B of ABC), and (C of ABC)

II. In order to satisfy the first requirement of (A of ABC) you must be a "Sorcerer" by any means.

III. In order to satisfy the second requirement of (A of ABC) you must have the "Acid Orb" power by any means.

IV. In order to satisfy the first requirement of (B of ABC) you must be a "Sorcerer" and in order to satisfy this requirement of (B of ABC) you must satisfy the first requirement of (A of ABC) listed in section (II).

V. In order to satisfy the second requirement of (B of ABC) as it pertains to "This power would read as fallows." you must be using a "sorcerer attack power through a dagger" [PHB2 page 189], which means in order to satisfy this requirement of (B of ABC) you must satisfy the requirements of (C of ABC) as listed in sections (VI), and (VII).

VI. In order to satisfy the first requirement of (C of ABC) you must be able to use a "Dagger Implement", and this requirement can be satisfied by satisfying the first requirement of (A of ABC) listed in section (II) in a manner that gives you the "Implement: Dagger".

VII. In order to satisfy the second requirement of (C of ABC) you must have a dagger implement item by any means.

VIII. If you have satisfied the requirements of (A of ABC), (B of ABC), and (C of ABC) as they are put forward in sections (II), (III), (IV), (V), and (VI). Then you have "This power would read as fallows." as stated in section (I).

IX. If you have "This power would read as fallows." As stated in sections (VIII), and (I). Then this power differs from "Acid Orb" [PHB2 page 138] in the fallowing manner "5. Ranged 20 or Melee 1" as apposed to "5. Ranged 20". All other parts (1-4 and 6-10) of "This power would read as fallows." retain there original text unchanged from "Acid Orb".

Here is my logic in some legalese. (10) dose not list a melee basic attack because nothing in (ABC) entitles it to one. The answer is no, you can not use acid orb as a melee basic attack, however you can use acid orb as a melee 1 attack standard action on your turn or wen an ally grants you a free standard action attack. If you increase your reach you could even use it as a melee 2 or more, but you can not make melee basics as I read it.

However this brings up another question If you are granted a ranged basic attack by something can you make a melee attack as that ranged basic? If you are granted a melee basic attack you can't use this power, but if your granted a ranged basic attack you can. I don't think it would work for this ether but it is interesting.
 
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Acid orb used by a sorcerer with Sorcerous Blade Channeling is a ranged basic attack. It is a basic attack. It is not a melee basic attack. I don't care what kind of attack it is, melee, ranged, area, or close, no rule lets it be a melee basic attack. Acid Orb can be used as a ranged basic attack, and nowhere does it say it can be used as a melee basic attack, even if it can be used as a melee power. The funny part is, if a power grants a basic attack or ranged basic attack, you can use Acid Orb as a melee attack.

Thank you! You've helped me to understand the logic behind why this wouldn't work.

And I'm done. You seem to be adamant in your position.

Not really adamant. Just that I'm having issue with resolving that an attack can be both a melee attack and a basic attack, but not be a melee basic attack; it is really a fine hair to split, IMO.

-Dan'L
 

For the record, I decided to pose this question to WOTC customer service as well. Much to my pleasant surprise, it only took about 20 minutes to get an answer; here's the response:

Response (Support Agent)05/19/2009 03:45 PM

Daniel,

Yes, a Sorcerer can use their Acid Orb in that way for an Opportunity Attack.

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

...

Aaron
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Saturday-Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST

Customer (Daniel Langsdale)05/19/2009 03:25 PM
Can a Sorceror with:

- Acid Orb (lvl 1 At-will; includes "Special: this power can be used as a ranged basic attack")

and

- Sorcerous Blade Channeling (feat; includes "when you use any ranged sorcerer attack bower through a dagger, you can use the power as a melee attack")

use a dagger to make a melee basic attack with the Acid Orb power as an OA?

Thanks!
-Dan'L

********************
Page Number: 138 & 189
Book Name: PHB2
 

Just that I'm having issue with resolving that an attack can be both a melee attack and a basic attack, but not be a melee basic attack; it is really a fine hair to split, IMO.
For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with you on that front. Some people need to take a step back and look beyond these minute technicalities that they wilfully wrap themselves in once in a while.
 

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with you on that front. Some people need to take a step back and look beyond these minute technicalities that they wilfully wrap themselves in once in a while.

Not at all, he asked for rules clarification NOT a 'should I allow this IMC'. If some one comes on and asks for a rules clarification the good people here give him a rules clarification... and I still hold that CustServ (as they have been many many times before) are wrong on this issue. It cannot, by the RAW, be used as a MBA.
If he had asked for advice on whether we other DMs would allow it he may have got a different answer... and indeed I answered to that effect. For you to just come onto a thread and bad mouth other people is not very helpful at all. Some people need to step back and think what they are saying about other forum members and not so wilfully misinterpret people trying to help!
 


Reaper's Touch only applies to Acid Orb. Sorcerous Blade Channeling can be applied to any ranged sorcerer power. Basically, it lets you use your ranged powers in melee without provoking an OA. Nice synergy for a sorcerer that relies on lots of close blasts (and thus gets into melee range frequently) but has some ranged powers that she also wants to use.
 

Reaper's Touch only applies to Acid Orb.
(...and a bunch of other at-will spells from several classes)
Sorcerous Blade Channeling can be applied to any ranged sorcerer power. Basically, it lets you use your ranged powers in melee without provoking an OA.
It allows you to take advantage of flanking, which makes it nice for using with Encounter & Daily powers.

Cheers, -- N
 

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