Sorry - I think the point was missed...

[Majoru Oakheart]

That's nice, but why did you reply to my post in order to give your testimonial? I didn't claim that it's impossible for anyone to be a DM without doing any design work, I merely said that for some number of DMs the design process is what makes them DM instead of play.

I assumed your post meant that D&D was intrinsically tied to DMs being game designers, and therefore running the game meant being one whether you liked it or not, I misunderstood.

But if you do want comment on your story, it sounds to me like the only reason you DM is because computer games aren't sophisticated enough yet to send your group through an enjoyable packaged adventure. From the way computer games have been developing over the last ten years, it wouldn't shock me if in a few years you found that computer games met your group's needs perfectly well. Of course, there are also some pen and paper RPGs that experiment with removing the GM - Capes, for example - but I think it's more likely that computer gaming companies will fill that niche, since they have more customers and bigger budgets.

Don't get me wrong, I play nearly every MMORPG out there in an effort to look for that elusive "immersiveness" that would finally be a game that could make me believe I was in a world like a D&D one. Unfortunately, due to game constraints, current games make that impossible.

You are right, that if I could ever find a computer system capable of running a virtual reality simulation of a D&D world and someone else would write a fully 3D, VR adventure with interactive characters who could think and react to you(and a way to have a combat system that didn't rely on my own reflexes), I'd likely never play D&D again.

I think that is much further off than a couple of years though. As long as we still have to fight against enemies who use the exact same tactics each time we meet them and have to follow a linear path, there will still be a place for RPGs and D&D. My favorite part of being a DM is seeing how the story unfolds and challenging my players with enemies and tactics.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Majoru, have you tried DMing Neverwinter Nights? It's no virtual reality, but a lot of people use it as that "holy grail" you're looking for, where you can group up and play through a prewritten session or campaign. I've known many people who use the system to play in the way you've described.

 

[Gentlegamer]

IYou are right, that if I could ever find a computer system capable of running a virtual reality simulation of a D&D world and someone else would write a fully 3D, VR adventure with interactive characters who could think and react to you(and a way to have a combat system that didn't rely on my own reflexes), I'd likely never play D&D again.

What about the social aspect?

 

[SWBaxter]

You are right, that if I could ever find a computer system capable of running a virtual reality simulation of a D&D world and someone else would write a fully 3D, VR adventure with interactive characters who could think and react to you(and a way to have a combat system that didn't rely on my own reflexes), I'd likely never play D&D again.

With all due respect, it doesn't sound like full VR is necessary to match what you do as a DM. From what you posted, it seems to me that multiplayer TOEE with better AI would come pretty close to matching the DMing services you provide for your group, thus allowing you to just play the game. The two major technical boundaries to overcome are that the AI isn't good enough yet and there aren't enough of those types of games for a group to choose from, and I think both of those problems are pretty solvable in the relatively near future.

I think that is much further off than a couple of years though. As long as we still have to fight against enemies who use the exact same tactics each time we meet them and have to follow a linear path, there will still be a place for RPGs and D&D.

That's available today, lots of games feature tactical variation and insanely deep branching plots. Non-combat interaction and strategic planning is more of an issue, that's where AI needs improvements.

 

[Dragonblade]

I'd love to see D&D's rules follow more of a "Macro/Micro" philosophy, where the DM can use a cut-down rules-set that still interfaces legally with the fully statted out Player Characters, without a ton of prep time. In the old days (and still I do this) I often write down a stripped-down stat-block or I ad-hoc the stats for an NPC or monster, because to write down every critter the PC's would interact with would drive me to distraction; it also means I couldn't run an off-the-cuff D&D session if I had to. Just as in M&M someone's Defense or base attack bonus could be broken down into categories (attack could be broken into ranged, melee, and unarmed, defense could be broken into Natural/Armor and deflection/shield, etc.) the DM could pick a point-buy bonus that was still equivalent to what his PC's would be challenged with, but the players could customize the heck out of their characters and the DM's NPCs would still be legal and appropriate challenge to the PCs.

I don't think I stated this as clearly as I liked in my previous posting, but this is what I was getting at. A system where both players and DMs can build characters with as much or as little customization as they like. A complete point buy system for DM's and the hard core min/maxers to use but structured templates for the quick play types who don't want to account for every last point.

Think about the brilliance of this. You have a point buy system, perhaps similar to M&M. Every attack bonus, saving throw, skill rank, feat, hit point, etc. can be purchased with character points, probably with some sort of cap based on character/power level. This allows people to make exactly the character they envision. It also allows DMs to create NPC or monster stats on the fly without worrying about whether their builds are a legal combination of classes or feats. If I'm DMing, and I want the PCs to fight an orc with +20 to hit, and certain AC, feats, etc. I can easily just do it and know that even though I haven't bothered to account for every point, my build is legal. Under the current rules, I can't just arbitrarily give an orc those stats. I have to figure out his class, his level, calculate out what his bonuses are, etc. Its a real pain and it takes forever.

And yes, I know some of you DMs out there are thinking, "You're the DM. Why don't you just do it that way anyway?" Simple. Because I don't feel comfortable just making stuff up. And neither do my players. We want to know that both PC and NPC builds are based on the actual rules.

Something else that would be good, would be prebuilt templates using the point buy system. Here is a basic orc template. Here is a power/character level 10 fighter template. Just add all the bonuses together and BAM! instant 10th level orc fighter. You could even do something like this under the current rules. I have seen attempts, like in the DMG, but those templates are never designed the way an actual player would design them.

 

[Akrasia]

Ryan, count me as one of the people who find your input fascinating and hope that it will continue, despite the naysayers here who seem to be able to do nothing but spit vitriol. ...

Ummmm ... where has vitriol been spat in this thread? :\

 

[Umbran]

Ok, that makes a great deal of sense to me. In fact, I have a hard time understanding why any rules should be hidden from the players. Maybe the future 4E should have all game rules in the PHB, with the DMG being closer to what the current DMG II is. Just a thought....

Perhaps someone addressed this in the depths of page 2 or 3, and I missed it. but, just in case...

A major tool one can use to create a feeling of magic, mystery, wonder, or tension is controlled information. If the players know all the rules, you cannot surprise them with anything. Players have a difficult time reducing an encounter with a monster into a collision of stat-blocks if they don't know what rules the monster follows in full. Ignorance keeps the players guessing, rather than calculating.

The best examples of this I can think of are classic Deadlands and Paranoia - games in which the palyers are strongly encouraged to remain ignorant of rules that they don't personally use.

 

[Akrasia]

...I think this is the main reason why you continually fail to understand the other side.

You view the world more as a creation, I view it more as a simulation....

Ummm ... I *do* understand "the other side" -- I have *repeatedly* noted that 'rules light' systems are inappropriate for gamers interested in 'simulationist' gaming experiences.

I have also repeatedly noted that attempts to use rules light systems for 'simulationist' purposes (by introducing a lot of ad hoc modifiers and rules in order to 'simulate' different situations) are likely to lead to frustation.

(As an aside, I find it strange that some people think that D&D 3e does a good job in "simulating reality" -- but that is another matter.)

...
However, a lot of DMs know that since their the DM anything they make up is the "right" way, they use this continually. "Don't argue, I'm the DM."

I am quite relieved to report that I generally play with *mature* individuals who do not behave in the manner you describe. (A word of advice: it is not a good idea to generalize on the basis of your own particular, rather unfortunate, experiences.)

 

[Akrasia]

... Essentially, all I see here is DMs who are so full of themselves that they believe they never make mistakes or that their players are too dumb to notice the mistakes....

To whom are you referring? Who are these DMs that are "full of themselves"?

Please do *not* assume that your own particular experiences are universally shared.

...
It seems to be more driven by hatred of D&D than it is liking the new system. The most stated reason I was given why people like Vampire is "It isn't full of powergaming, hack and slash D&D players". Which, of course, isn't true. But the people who play it see it that way.

Please do *not* assume that your own particular experiences are universally shared.

 

[Campbell]

(As an aside, I find it strange that some people think that D&D 3e does a good job in "simulating reality" -- but that is another matter.)

I believe most of us who use 3e in a simulationist vein hold no illusion that 3e serves a halfway serviceable tool for 'simulating reality'. Rather, what I believe those who GM in the same manner as I do is a world that functions on a level totally unlike our own, a world where the supernatural has a meaningful impact on day to day living, where good and evil are more than abstract principles, where potential is limitless and where mortal peril is a fact of life. In short we are trying to simulate a world where there is much wahoo. The level of detail and customization that 3e provides allows us to more fully immerse our players within that world. When we play the reality of this world takes a back seat.