Soulknife as a PrC (1.0)

Focused Talent- is that a feat of your own design? I don't recognize it.

Oh, BTW- Dragon #341 also had a feat- Practiced Manifester (or some such) that was essentially the same as Practiced Spellcaster- virtually a must for multiclassed Soulknives. Your blade manifesting powers were 4 levels higher than normal, up to your level in Soulknife.
 

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DannyAlcatraz: I dunno if he included the feat at first, but it is detailed right underneath the 20-level soulknife progression of his.

Technik4 said:
OK, here are my new ideas for Soulknife revision. There are 3 options which should all play the same, and can even work in the same campaign, but no character can take levels in different soulknife classes.
Frankly, I don't see the point or reason for having 3 classes in the game that all share the same shtick, only a little differently with a different number of levels. Just ditch two of them as unnecessary; I'd just keep the 15 level PrC or the 10 level PrC instead, probably just keep the 10-level version.

Base Class Soulknife, Revised
1. Base Attack Progression is improved to full instead of 3/4. This class has very limited powers and is essentially a 1-hit pony - that involves hitting! In exchange the class loses a few feats worth of power (levels 1, 5, and 6 should have bonus feats to enable the class to have the utility of the version found in XPH).
4. Saving Throws changed to Good Reflex, Poor Fort and Will.

HD: d10
Skill Points: 4 + Int Modifier
Class Skills
The Soulknife's class skills are Autohypnosis, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Psionics), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Spot, and Tumble.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Soulknives are proficient with all simple weapons, with their own mind blades, and with light armor as well as shields (except tower shields).

Focused Talent*: The soulknife gains this as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Mind Blade: Exactly as printed in the XPH.

Bonus Feat: Armor Proficiency (Medium), Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Expanded Knowledge+, Ghost Attack, Greater Weapon Focus (Mind Blade), Improved Critical (Mind Blade), Multiple Throw, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Body+, Psychic Strike+, Quick Draw (Mind Blade), Shape Mind Blade, Speed of Thought+, Throw Mind Blade, Up the Walls, Weapon Focus (Mind Blade). Alternately the Soulknife may choose to gain Sneak Attack in lieu of a bonus feat as the Rogue ability of the same name.
[Also I need to find those Dragon Magazine feats, as they will count as possible bonus feats]
+: This feat may be chosen more than once.

Manifester: The soulknife is considered to be a manifesting class, but his effective manifesting level is equal to 1/2 half his soulknife level, rounded down.

1 Mind Blade, Focused Talent*
2 Bonus Feat 1
3 Bonus Feat 2
4 +1 Mind Blade
5 Bonus Feat 3, Manifester, Learn Vigor as a power
6 Mind Blade Enhancement +1
7 Bonus Feat 4
8 +2 Mind Blade
9 Bonus Feat 5, Learn Bladewind as a power
10 Mind Blade Enhancement +2
11 Bonus Feat 6
12 +3 Mind Blade
13 Bonus Feat 7, Learn Knife to the Soul as a power
14 Mind Blade Enhancement +3
15 Bonus Feat 8
16 +4 Mind Blade
17 Bonus Feat 9, Learn Mind Blank, Personal as a power
18 Mind Blade Enhancement +4
19 Bonus Feat 10
20 +5 Mind Blade

*Focused Talent [General]
Benefit: Your latent power of psionics flares to life, conferring upon you the designation of a psionic character, you gain a reserve number of power points equal to your character level, and can take psionic feats, metapsionic feats, and psionic item creation feats. You do not, however, gain the ability to manifest powers simply by virtue of having this feat.
Okay, so basically this is the Psionic Fighter-Ranger ++...... :\ Ditch this version altogether, or weaken the BAB and maybe the HD too. This class basically gives up 1 fighter bonus feat in exchange for a powerfully enhanced free permanent mindblade, a handful of automatic psionic powers with a small reserve of power points, a different strong save, better skills, slightly fewer proficiencies, and somewhat more restricted choice of bonus feats (but still useful ones). And, why does a sneaky psionic assassin-type need great Hit Dice? Also, if you use this custom Focused Talent feat, just change the name to Wild Talent and have it replace the normal Wild Talent feat, since it obviates any reason to take the latter feat otherwise.


15-level Prestige Class Soulknife
HD: d10
Prerequisites:
BAB: +3
Concentration: 7 ranks
Power Point Reserve: 5+
Otherwise it is the same as the base class, above (Full BAB, Reflex Good, Fort and Will Poor, 4+Int Skills/level).

1 Mind Blade
2 (+1 Manifester level or Bonus Feat)
3 +1 Mind Blade
4 (+1 Manifester level or Bonus Feat)
5 Mind Blade Enhancement +1
6 +2 Mind Blade
7 (+1 Manifester level or Bonus Feat), Learn Bladewind as a power
8 Mind Blade Enhancement +2
9 +3 Mind Blade
10 (+1 Manifester level or Bonus Feat), Learn Knife to the Soul as a power
11 Mind Blade Enhancement +3
12 +4 Mind Blade
13 (+1 Manifester level or Bonus Feat), Learn Mind Blank, Personal as a power
14 Mind Blade Enhancement +4
15 +5 Mind Blade
And this version is even more powerful. This one is Fighter-Ranger-Psychic Warrior ++. Better base stats than a Fighter, with 2-3 few feats replaced with limited psionic powers and a mindblade bearing +9 total enhancement equivalent.

Also, it's easily acquired by a Maenad or Xeph Fighter 4 (or Fighter 3/Rogue 1, or Ranger 4, or Ranger 3/Rogue 1, or Psychic Warrior 4) with two copies of the Psionic Talent feat from the XPH (PsyWar version doesn't need them, but the Fighter version could still have W. Spec. and such while still getting these feats at 1st and 3rd level).

I don't think many PCs would take the meager 5 levels of increased manifesting ability, instead of the 5 bonus feats. This is definitely more of a Fighter or Ranger-oriented prestige class now than a Rogue or psionic manifester prestige class. This version just gives a token amount of manifester improvement as a possibility, while really being oriented towards heavy melee combat and accurate, power-attacking damage output rather than sneaky fighting and psionic spycraft stuff.

Reduce the HD to d8 or d6. I don't know what else could weaken this sufficiently without giving it dead levels. I think I'd suggest d6 HD. It's an easy class to enter anyhow, with either 1 level of a psionic class combined with 1-2 Psionic Talent feats, or a few levels in a psionic class combined with 1-3 levels of any warrior-type or rogue-type class (I think 1 level of Psion with 1 copy of Psionic Talent or Wild Talent would be enough to meet the power point requirement, and easily get all the Concentration ranks; so a Fighter 4/Psion 1 would easily qualify).


10-level Prestige Class Soulknife
Prerequisites:
BAB: +6
Concentration: 11 ranks
Power Point Reserve: 19+

1 Mind Blade, (Manifester Level +1 or Bonus Feat)
2 +1 Mind Blade
3 (Manifester Level +1 or Bonus Feat)
4 +2 Mind Blade
5 Mind Blade Enhancement +1, Learn Bladewind as a power
6 +3 Mind Blade
7 (Manifester Level +1 or Bonus Feat), Learn Knife to the Soul as a power
8 +4 Mind Blade
9 Mind Blade Enhancement +2
10 +5 Mind Blade
This one is possibly more problematic, or at least as much. They get better-than-Fighter basic stats along with 1/3 manifester progression (or 3 bonus feats) as well as the mindblade with most enhancements and two psuedo-powers. Also, once again the manifester levels are kinda clumped so a manifester-emphasizing PC could take 3-5 levels with minimal loss and gain a nice boost to physical combat ability. Yet this version requires a lotta power points for a warrior-type PrC, but even so, a pure Psychic Warrior would get a good boost of combat ability from this class with little given up in exchange (only 1 level of powers and some power points given up). And with the mindblade, have more money available to spend on other combat-boosting magic/psionic items.

Also, none of these really seem to fit your initial reasons for modding the soulknife. These are all more of a maenad Fighter's soulknife PrC, or at best a Psychic Warrior's soulknife PrC, not as well suited to anyone else. Well, aside from the base class version, which is just Fighter-PsyWar ++ FTW!! Especially when dipping 1 level into PsyWar, learning Expansion, and taking Practiced Manifester at some point.


The base class advances at a 1:2 Mind Blade Progression, while the 15-level class is at 3/4 and the PrC is 1:1. If you consider the ability to manifest a Mind Blade to be level 1, you can allow soulknives more options with prestige classes by allowing them to substitute 2 levels of manifesting improvement for 1 level of Mind Blade Progression.

Mind Blade Progression Table:
Level 1 Mind Blade
Level 2 +1 Mind Blade
Level 3 Mind Blade Enhancement +1
Level 4 +2 Mind Blade
Level 5 Mind Blade Enhancement +2
Level 6 +3 Mind Blade
Level 7 Mind Blade Enhancement +3
Level 8 +4 Mind Blade
Level 9 Mind Blade Enhancement +4
Level 10 +5 Mind Blade

By default, you can offer 1:5 progression without any concern. For instance, a Soulknife6/Psychic Warrior5 would have the mind blade ability of an 8th level Soulknife (the 5 Psychic Warrior levels would improve the mind blade progression by 1, from level 3 to level 4).
I really don't get what this section is supposed to mean or be about, or its purpose.
 

That analysis aside, this would be my suggested version. Also, mind you, I still think the XPH version sucks too and doesn't make sense with a d10 HD and mediocre skill points. :\

SOULKNIFE PRESTIGE CLASS

HD: d8

Code:
REQUIREMENTS
BAB: +4
Concentration: 5 ranks
Intimidate: 5 ranks
Knowledge (Psionics): 5 ranks
Feat: Psionic Weapon
Power Point Reserve: Must have a maximum
power point reserve of 3 or higher.
Powers: Must know at least two psionic
powers of 1st-level or higher.

Class Skills: As per the XPH version.
Skill Points at Each Level: As per the XPH version.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As per the XPH version.

Manifesting: Improves manifesting ability, power point reserve, etc. at each even-numbered level in the Soulknife prestige class, effects are identical to the psionic manifesting improvements of the Thrallherd prestige class.

Mind Blade: As per the XPH version, except as shown on the table below.

Psychic Strike: As per the XPH version, except as shown on the table below.

Bonus Psionic Feat: Soulknives gain a bonus feat of their choice at 1st-level in this prestige class, but this must be a Psionic feat for which they meet the prerequisites.

Throw Mind Blade: As per the XPH version.

Free Draw: As per the XPH version.

Shape Mind Blade: As per the XPH version.

Bladewind: As per the XPH version, except each use of the Bladewind ability costs 5 power points.

Knife to the Soul: As per the XPH version, except each use of the Knife to the Soul ability costs 5 power points, in addition to the normal reduction in the bonus damage dice from the Psychic Strike it is used with.

Code:
Class	Base	Fort.	Ref.	Will
Level	Attack	Save	Save	Save	Special
1	+0	+0	+2	+0	Mind blade +1, psychic strike
					+1d8, bonus psionic feat
2	+1	+0	+3	+0	+1 effective manifester level,
					throw mind blade
3	+2	+1	+3	+1	Mind blade +2, free draw
4	+3	+1	+4	+1	+1 effective manifester level
5	+3	+1	+4	+1	Mind blade +3, shape mind
					blade
6	+4	+2	+5	+2	+1 effective manifester level
7	+5	+2	+5	+2	Mind blade +4, psychic
					strike +2d8
8	+6	+2	+6	+2	+1 effective manifester level
9	+6	+3	+6	+3	Mind blade +5, bladewind
10	+7	+3	+7	+3	+1 effective manifester level,
					knife to the soul
 

Frankly, I don't see the point or reason for having 3 classes in the game that all share the same shtick, only a little differently with a different number of levels. Just ditch two of them as unnecessary; I'd just keep the 15 level PrC or the 10 level PrC instead, probably just keep the 10-level version.

Well, the reason is that this class was originally a PrC and later changed to a base class. My current DM doesn't like it as a base class, but thinks a 15-level PrC is a great idea. And when I came up with the Mind Blade progression, I felt I had found something really good.

Base Soulknife Analysis said:
Okay, so basically this is the Psionic Fighter-Ranger ++...... Ditch this version altogether, or weaken the BAB and maybe the HD too. This class basically gives up 1 fighter bonus feat in exchange for a powerfully enhanced free permanent mindblade, a handful of automatic psionic powers with a small reserve of power points, a different strong save, better skills, slightly fewer proficiencies, and somewhat more restricted choice of bonus feats (but still useful ones). And, why does a sneaky psionic assassin-type need great Hit Dice? Also, if you use this custom Focused Talent feat, just change the name to Wild Talent and have it replace the normal Wild Talent feat, since it obviates any reason to take the latter feat otherwise.

No, you are missing a few things in your analysis. The mind blade has limitations, namely that it doesn't work on things without a mind. That's not quite as limiting as a rogue, but I think it's worth noting. The class does not have access to the fighter's range of feats. Most of the feats are designed to enhance the mind blade, or add some mobility. Skills are better, but honestly I don't think it's a big deal as Concentration is a must for any Psionic character who plans on expending his focus.

The proficiencies are not 'slightly fewer', they are pretty bad. Light Armor and Simple Weapons? Also keep in mind the mind blade at best becomes a 2-handed 1d10 weapon - you can never turn it into a greatsword. The ranged capabilities of the class are severely limited. I kept the d10 from the base class printed in the XPH, reduced the will saving throw, and actually took away some of the bonus abilities when I replaced them with feats (the idea being that not every Soulknife has weapon focus and greater weapon focus, or perhaps the ability to throw their mind blade).

A level 6 Soulknife from the XPH has the following:
BAB:+4
Good Ref and Will
Mind Blade +1 (with one enhancement), Weapon Focus (Mind Blade), Wild Talent (2 PP), Throw Mind Blade, Psychic Strike +1d8, Free Draw, Shape Mind Blade, and Speed of Thought.
Light Armor

My proposed level 6 Soulknife has:
BAB: +6/+1
Good Ref
Mind Blade +1 (with one enhancement), Focused Talent (6 PP), 3 Bonus Feats, and knows Vigor as a power with a manifester level of 3.
Light Armor

If you concede that to optimize the character he must take Weapon Focus (Mind Blade) and Shape Mind Blade (which will have a BAB 5+ requirement when I stat it) you have 1 feat left-over. You can't get Throw Mind Blade, Psychic Strike +1d8, Free Draw, and Speed of Thought with 1 feat. Hence the BAB increase. Reducing the hit die of the class is counter-productive - it only shines in melee and it has a low armor threshold.

I believe there was a fundamental shift in the design philosophy for the Soulknife going from the original Psi Handbook to the XPH. The Soulknife was redesigned not as a psionic assasin base class (though potential is still there), but as a fighter-variant (like the barbarian or the ranger). At some point, the BAB got reduced to 3/4. Reducing is probably why the designer added Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus as bonus feats (especially at levels where the Soulknife doesn't get an increase - 1 and 9). But for a melee-based class with almost no powers and a small pool of skills, I don't think it's enough. Especially when/if you want to multiclass, you'll find your mind blade to be very weak in comparison.

Meanwhile, a 6th level fighter could easily have:
BAB: +6/+1
Good Fort
Feats: WF (Greatsword), Power Attack, WS (Greatsword), Cleave
Heavy Armor


15-level Analysis said:
And this version is even more powerful. This one is Fighter-Ranger-Psychic Warrior ++. Better base stats than a Fighter, with 2-3 few feats replaced with limited psionic powers and a mindblade bearing +9 total enhancement equivalent.

The base stats are equal to the fighter, but you almost certainly have to multiclass into a psionic class (which loses you a point of BAB). At least, that was my intention. The mind blade does reach +9 total enhancement - by level 20. Just as the base class soulknife's does.

Also, it's easily acquired by a Maenad or Xeph Fighter 4 (or Fighter 3/Rogue 1, or Ranger 4, or Ranger 3/Rogue 1, or Psychic Warrior 4) with two copies of the Psionic Talent feat from the XPH (PsyWar version doesn't need them, but the Fighter version could still have W. Spec. and such while still getting these feats at 1st and 3rd level).

I would remove the Psionic Talent feat then. If it's sole purpose is to help Psionic Races qualify early for prestige classes, it's really not 'a good thing'. I have never seen it used for anything else, and regular classed psionic characters never end up taking it.

I don't think many PCs would take the meager 5 levels of increased manifesting ability, instead of the 5 bonus feats. This is definitely more of a Fighter or Ranger-oriented prestige class now than a Rogue or psionic manifester prestige class. This version just gives a token amount of manifester improvement as a possibility, while really being oriented towards heavy melee combat and accurate, power-attacking damage output rather than sneaky fighting and psionic spycraft stuff.

I guess it depends what you're going for. My thoughts were to design it around a Psychic Warrior. A 4th level Psychic Warrior qualifies for the 15-level prestige class (as an 8th level Psychic Warrior qualifies for the 10-level prestige class). If the Psychic warrior took the manifester levels he could manfiest as a 10th level Psychic Warrior, but would have a Mind Blade as a primary weapon. His BAB would also be higher, but he would not have the higher level powers to use.

Reduce the HD to d8 or d6. I don't know what else could weaken this sufficiently without giving it dead levels. I think I'd suggest d6 HD. It's an easy class to enter anyhow, with either 1 level of a psionic class combined with 1-2 Psionic Talent feats, or a few levels in a psionic class combined with 1-3 levels of any warrior-type or rogue-type class (I think 1 level of Psion with 1 copy of Psionic Talent or Wild Talent would be enough to meet the power point requirement, and easily get all the Concentration ranks; so a Fighter 4/Psion 1 would easily qualify).

I don't think it's that easy, and if you remove the Psionic Talent feat it certainly becomes a lot harder (alternately, just create a reasonable pre-requisite for Psionic Talent).

Overall I am thinking that the BAB may need to be 3/4 for the prestige classes, but the base Soulknife is not overpowered with a full BAB. The class is very narrow (far narrower than the rogue) and has limited tanking ability.

The Mind-blade progression table was designed to allow the Soulknife to actually multiclass - currently all you can really do with the class is take it to 20th level, or become a Soulbow or the one from Eberron which lets you align your mind blade to Good. My thought was that if you break it down into 10 'levels' of mind blade, you could design 3 classes around it. A class that upgraded its mind blade every level, a class that upgraded at 3/4 level, and a class that upgraded every other level. My intention was to create them equally, but it was not as easy as I had hoped.

I appreciate all the criticism, and I am still working out the numbers. Do most of your complaints still stand if the BAB is reduced to 3/4 on all the classes?
 

Ark, I saw the description of Focused Talent- I was just trying to determine the Feat's origin.

My problem with this thread, I suppose, is a difference in perception of what the Soulknife is supposed to be.

Unlike many people, I don't see them as front line fighters. To me, they're warriors of opportunity and tactical decisions- almost like a base-class assassin with no alignment restrictions. Thus, I have no problem with the clerical BAB progression.

They have decent skill points, and a weapon that can only be taken away under the most unusual of circumstances. Not only that, the weapon is throwable, enhanceable and "enchant"-able...and most importantly, it can deliver ability damage. A good "knife to the soul" strike could cost a spellcaster 20 spells or so. That isn't penny-ante.

The only problems I have with the class is that 1) they are given no psychic powers at all beyond their mind-blade, and 2) the "knife to the soul" ability is gained so late.

To address the first "weakness," giving them a bard-like progression in psionics using either the PsyWar or a chosen Psion specialty list wouldn't be abusive.

To address the second is more difficult. In a real sense, KttS is the Soulknife's version of Sneak Attack damage...except they already get some bonus damage along the way. I'd drop that bonus damage, and in its place, I'd give them a slowly increasing ability to deal ability damage. 1 point at the beginning, then 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, etc.

All that said, I generally run them as-is.
 

Technik4 said:
No, you are missing a few things in your analysis. The mind blade has limitations, namely that it doesn't work on things without a mind. That's not quite as limiting as a rogue, but I think it's worth noting. The class does not have access to the fighter's range of feats. Most of the feats are designed to enhance the mind blade, or add some mobility. Skills are better, but honestly I don't think it's a big deal as Concentration is a must for any Psionic character who plans on expending his focus.

The proficiencies are not 'slightly fewer', they are pretty bad. Light Armor and Simple Weapons? Also keep in mind the mind blade at best becomes a 2-handed 1d10 weapon - you can never turn it into a greatsword. The ranged capabilities of the class are severely limited. I kept the d10 from the base class printed in the XPH, reduced the will saving throw, and actually took away some of the bonus abilities when I replaced them with feats (the idea being that not every Soulknife has weapon focus and greater weapon focus, or perhaps the ability to throw their mind blade).
Alright, I concede I did skip over the mind blade limitation you added in somewhere, and I skimmed over the profs and thought they resembles the ranger's or rogue's. However.
1) ranged abilities aren't so limited when they qualify to take the Psionic Shot feat chain in addition to the normal ranged attack feat chain, using a heavy crossbow or something else.
2) yeah it really does encourage multiclassing 1 level into Fighter or Psychic Warrior for expanded proficiencies, another bonus feat, or a nice psionic boost. That's not really a good thing, and yet, it eliminates much of the problem. 1 level dip into either of those jacks up his armor and weapon proficiencies and nabs him another handy feat, like Psionic Weapon or whatever. Since this guy is gonna save money on his main melee weapon, he can easily afford a good bow after his 1-level-dip into Ftr or PsyWar.
3) Yes the base class only has WF and GWF to make up for its medium BAB progression, so this full-BAB version really wouldn't need them. This class still has better skills than a Fighter after considering they'll likely sink points into Concentration for a few levels, and while their bonus feat selection is more limited, that's not exactly a huge drawback; it's still a decent bonus feat list.

A level 6 Soulknife from the XPH has the following:
BAB:+4
Good Ref and Will
Mind Blade +1 (with one enhancement), Weapon Focus (Mind Blade), Wild Talent (2 PP), Throw Mind Blade, Psychic Strike +1d8, Free Draw, Shape Mind Blade, and Speed of Thought.
Light Armor

My proposed level 6 Soulknife has:
BAB: +6/+1
Good Ref
Mind Blade +1 (with one enhancement), Focused Talent (6 PP), 3 Bonus Feats, and knows Vigor as a power with a manifester level of 3.
Light Armor

Meanwhile, a 6th level fighter could easily have:
BAB: +6/+1
Good Fort
Feats: WF (Greatsword), Power Attack, WS (Greatsword), Cleave
Heavy Armor
......I think you're rather missing the fact that your version still trumps the XPH version and the Fighter at this level. Yours trumps the XPH version here with +2 more attack bonus and an extra attack per round (which can still be very accurate sometimes if they take Deep Impact as their level 6 character feat). In exchange yours has a slightly lower Will save (+2 instead of +5), no Throw Mind Blade (arguably feat-equivalent maybe, you can just use a normal thrown weapon or projectile anyway), and no Psychic Strike (not really feat-equivalent, it's worse than psionic weapon)..... It gets 3 feats worth of stuff still, like the XPH version, which it gets to choose instead, and its Focused Talent gives more PP than Wild Talent which is good for multiclassing and makes up for the lack of Free Draw, which isn't terribly important anyway (nothing stops them from keeping their mind blade active for a while when traveling or whatnot on the off chance they're ambushed on the road).

Your version's flexibility, attack rate, feat-qualification speed, accuracy, and greater power points for multiclassing (a few levels of Psychic Warrior really, really don't hurt this character; so what if their mind blade gets a tad less enhancement at upper levels, they've got a full BAB and the PsyWar's got decent BAB for its first 4 levels, and Expansion is sooo tempting, and the other powers and bonus feats.....) make it superior, and the BAB difference just grows larger over the course of further levels.

Compared to the Fighter, your version gets 1 less feat-equivalent benefit, and instead gains several power points, a psionic power, more skill points and better class skills, a decent mind blade that's free, and fewer proficiencies (assuming again that he doesn't just dip 1 level into Fighter for them and another bonus feat, overcoming the only 2 deficiencies in that case). Sure, it's not a lot better, but your version is very similar to the Fighter in many ways so it's a good comparison.

If you concede that to optimize the character he must take Weapon Focus (Mind Blade) and Shape Mind Blade (which will have a BAB 5+ requirement when I stat it) you have 1 feat left-over. You can't get Throw Mind Blade, Psychic Strike +1d8, Free Draw, and Speed of Thought with 1 feat. Hence the BAB increase. Reducing the hit die of the class is counter-productive - it only shines in melee and it has a low armor threshold.
etc.
Weapon Focus really isn't optimal for this class, I think, since it doesn't get a fighter's later feats like Weapon Specialization. But I suppose you're meaning to make it a prereq of Shape Mind Blade. And anyway, as mentioned your class has other benefits that make up for the miscellany that a standard Soulknife would get, the extra BAB and PP and psionic power (those other abilities aren't really all that good). Again, the ranged weakness is nothing, they can easily afford to pour money into a good ranged weapon. 1 feat or multiclass level will get them composite longbow proficiency if they want it, but crossbows aren't all that bad (and there's always the Rapid Reload feat). The same can get them full armor profs.

The base stats are equal to the fighter, but you almost certainly have to multiclass into a psionic class (which loses you a point of BAB). At least, that was my intention. The mind blade does reach +9 total enhancement - by level 20. Just as the base class soulknife's does.
Which really isn't a drawback for it; it's still superior to Fighters even if it gives up 1 level for Psychic Warrior benefits (great proficiencies, awesome selection for a bonus feat, a handy psionic power, and possibly some bonus points from Wisdom). And I think you're forgetting the fact that this character can still spend money on a backup weapon if he feels the need, like if the DM has a preference for constructs/undead. He just doesn't need one so much; a simple +1 morningstar or such will do him just fine for those few cases where his mind blade is ineffectual.

I would remove the Psionic Talent feat then. If it's sole purpose is to help Psionic Races qualify early for prestige classes, it's really not 'a good thing'. I have never seen it used for anything else, and regular classed psionic characters never end up taking it.
Huh? That's not its 'sole purpose' at all. Psionic Talent is in the XPH as an update and renaming of the Inner Strength feat from 3.0. It's extra power points, that can be taken multiple times, and improves a bit each time, as an equivalent to the spellcasters' access to the Extra Slot feat or whatever (to cast more spells each day). A Psychic Warrior with less-than-stellar Wisdom may take it for extra points so he doesn't burn out his main abilities all in 1-2 fights each day. It's a good 1st-level feat to take sometimes. And someone who just dips a bit into a psionic class can use Psionic Talent to make better use of their power(s); example: Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 3/Barbarian 4+, take Practiced Manifester and 1+ copies of Psionic Talent, use augmented Expansion at the start of every fight just before Raging and it'll last quite a while as a big damage boost. Etc. Though it is a bit weaker in 3.5 since psionic feats no longer require spending power points or having a certain number of them left in reserve.

Near as I can tell your Focused Talent only serves to fill the same purposes only better, and make the Soulknife better for multiclassing (rather than just giving it some power points directly, or making its few power-like abilities not cost any points as in the XPH).

I don't think it's that easy, and if you remove the Psionic Talent feat it certainly becomes a lot harder (alternately, just create a reasonable pre-requisite for Psionic Talent).
Huh-wha? Psionic Talent isn't a strong feat. There's no way in the Nine Hells that it deserves a prerequisite anyway. As it is the only prerequisite is 'possession of a power point reserve' because it's a Psionic feat in the first place.

The Mind-blade progression table was designed to allow the Soulknife to actually multiclass - currently all you can really do with the class is take it to 20th level, or become a Soulbow or the one from Eberron which lets you align your mind blade to Good. My thought was that if you break it down into 10 'levels' of mind blade, you could design 3 classes around it. A class that upgraded its mind blade every level, a class that upgraded at 3/4 level, and a class that upgraded every other level. My intention was to create them equally, but it was not as easy as I had hoped.
Except from your mind blade description I can't quite grasp how it's supposed to work/what it's supposed to do, and how that would help with multiclassing. I think I'm understanding now that the purpose is that a Soulknife multiclassed into a psionic prestige class could improve their mind blade instead of manifesting ability, but it didn't quite make sense at first, and I'm still not sure I'm guessing right from the way it's worded.

Reducing the Base Attack Bonus probably balances them out, I dunno. It either makes them close to balanced, or a bit underpowered like the XPH version.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
Ark, I saw the description of Focused Talent- I was just trying to determine the Feat's origin.

My problem with this thread, I suppose, is a difference in perception of what the Soulknife is supposed to be.

Unlike many people, I don't see them as front line fighters. To me, they're warriors of opportunity and tactical decisions- almost like a base-class assassin with no alignment restrictions. Thus, I have no problem with the clerical BAB progression.

Yep yep, that's how I've always pictured them too. I don't like the XPH's d10 HD for them cuz it gives the impression they're supposed to be front-line stand-up-and-duke-it-out types, rather than spring-outta-nowhere-psychic-weapon assassins who specialize in dishing out sudden, big hits, rather than lots of them in a Fighterish fashion.

They have decent skill points, and a weapon that can only be taken away under the most unusual of circumstances. Not only that, the weapon is throwable, enhanceable and "enchant"-able...and most importantly, it can deliver ability damage. A good "knife to the soul" strike could cost a spellcaster 20 spells or so. That isn't penny-ante.

The only problems I have with the class is that 1) they are given no psychic powers at all beyond their mind-blade, and 2) the "knife to the soul" ability is gained so late.

Yep, I thought the same things when I first looked at the XPH version. The 3.0 version was better suited to taking down enemies quickly with Sever Life, Knife to the Soul, Sneak Attack, and the Imbed Power/Psionic Attack abilities. Though the XPH version is best suited to a psion 3/rogue 3/soulknife X, it still gets its full offensive deadliness earlier than the XPH version. The XPH version does at least still have a useful function for Knife to the Soul, though with the stupid change that they no longer deal Constitution damage with it (you'd think with the name it would still have that option, even if they reduced the amount of Con damage when doing that instead of mental stat damage). And at least the XPH version retains some of the 3.0 version's emphasis on ninja-like or assassin-like tactics.

To address the first "weakness," giving them a bard-like progression in psionics using either the PsyWar or a chosen Psion specialty list wouldn't be abusive.

To address the second is more difficult. In a real sense, KttS is the Soulknife's version of Sneak Attack damage...except they already get some bonus damage along the way. I'd drop that bonus damage, and in its place, I'd give them a slowly increasing ability to deal ability damage. 1 point at the beginning, then 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, etc.

All that said, I generally run them as-is.
Hrrrm, I dunno about those changes. Simply tacking on bard-like psionics progression would be too much, unless you reduce the hit dice to d6 as well and take off one or two of the soulknife class features (I suppose it's arguable though whether or not the soulknife's class features are better than Bardic Music, I dunno).
 

By "bard-like" I mean extremely limited, like the various casters that don't have full casting progressions (Rangers, Paladins, etc.).

If they could learn just a few select powers- Inertial Armor, Force Screen, Biofeedback & Expansion to name a few- and only 1 or 2 per level, with very limited power points (perhaps no more than 2PSP/Lvl), they'd be much more effective because they'd be able to get to their intended targets (spellcasters) more easily without becoming overpowering.
 

However.
1) ranged abilities aren't so limited when they qualify to take the Psionic Shot feat chain in addition to the normal ranged attack feat chain, using a heavy crossbow or something else.

I think a character using a heavy crossbow and trying to use the Psionic Feat chain needs all the help they can get - in this case, it seems as if you're arguing for full BAB.

2) yeah it really does encourage multiclassing 1 level into Fighter or Psychic Warrior for expanded proficiencies, another bonus feat, or a nice psionic boost. That's not really a good thing, and yet, it eliminates much of the problem. 1 level dip into either of those jacks up his armor and weapon proficiencies and nabs him another handy feat, like Psionic Weapon or whatever. Since this guy is gonna save money on his main melee weapon, he can easily afford a good bow after his 1-level-dip into Ftr or PsyWar.

Yet, many characters have the same option. Explain how a rogue dipping into fighter (or psywar) isn't very much to his advantage. And if you do dip, your mind blade progression falls behind (the prestige classes I designed do not end up with a mind blade equal to what a normal character would have, in terms of magical bonuses until 10th or 11th character level - before that using their mind blade is a fairly underwhelming proposition.

3) Yes the base class only has WF and GWF to make up for its medium BAB progression, so this full-BAB version really wouldn't need them. This class still has better skills than a Fighter after considering they'll likely sink points into Concentration for a few levels, and while their bonus feat selection is more limited, that's not exactly a huge drawback; it's still a decent bonus feat list.

It's a very limited bonus feat list. There are no bonus feats regarding ranged weapons. There is no bonus feat to gain more power points on the list either. Almost every class (including the ranger and barbarian) have better skills than the Fighter. The fact is they don't have enough skill points to be a really good rogue without a decent Int. Concentration is already a must, if they take Move Silently and Hide, Tumble is likely their last skill. If they want to go Spot and Listen, again probably take Tumble as the 4th. But they can't get it all (and that is assuming they don't get the more fighter-y skills like climb, jump, and swim).


......I think you're rather missing the fact that your version still trumps the XPH version and the Fighter at this level. Yours trumps the XPH version here with +2 more attack bonus and an extra attack per round (which can still be very accurate sometimes if they take Deep Impact as their level 6 character feat). In exchange yours has a slightly lower Will save (+2 instead of +5), no Throw Mind Blade (arguably feat-equivalent maybe, you can just use a normal thrown weapon or projectile anyway), and no Psychic Strike (not really feat-equivalent, it's worse than psionic weapon)..... It gets 3 feats worth of stuff still, like the XPH version, which it gets to choose instead, and its Focused Talent gives more PP than Wild Talent which is good for multiclassing and makes up for the lack of Free Draw, which isn't terribly important anyway (nothing stops them from keeping their mind blade active for a while when traveling or whatnot on the off chance they're ambushed on the road).

The basis for this change is being underwhelmed by the XPH's version of Soulknife. I feel it is a weak, narrow base class that is rarely taken. I also feel there is room for a Psionic 'Fighter' variant. If the Psion is the Wizard, the Wilder is the Sorcerer, and the Psionic Warrior is an attempt at a gish (Fighter/Magic-User), then there is still room for the straight-up Psionic Fighter. How do you create a full BAB psionic class? You don't give them a power point progression, or hardly any powers, but you do give them bonus feats. In this case, I consider the skills to be a wash (check those proficiencies again). Also, you end up with a character with a 'free weapon', who has extra money to spend since he is saving so much on his primary weapon. Again I point out the extreme lack of ranged options and the inherent limitations of the mind blade. If you feel Free Draw is a weak feat, then compare it to Quick Draw. Yes, they aren't that strong, but they are about the right power for a feat.

Your version's flexibility, attack rate, feat-qualification speed, accuracy, and greater power points for multiclassing (a few levels of Psychic Warrior really, really don't hurt this character; so what if their mind blade gets a tad less enhancement at upper levels, they've got a full BAB and the PsyWar's got decent BAB for its first 4 levels, and Expansion is sooo tempting, and the other powers and bonus feats.....) make it superior, and the BAB difference just grows larger over the course of further levels.

I want a competitive psionic class that encourages multiclassing but doesn't become an auto-take. I feel the Fighter in the core rules is in the same spot. There are many situations where 1 or 2 or 4 levels of fighter can really help achieve a character concept. In the same vein, I think it's hard to create a Psionic Tank. PsyWars need to much pre-combat time to buff and as I think we've all agreed, the base Soulknife class is lacking. Taking 4 levels of Psywar will definitely impact your mind blade progression.

Compared to the Fighter, your version gets 1 less feat-equivalent benefit, and instead gains several power points, a psionic power, more skill points and better class skills, a decent mind blade that's free, and fewer proficiencies (assuming again that he doesn't just dip 1 level into Fighter for them and another bonus feat, overcoming the only 2 deficiencies in that case). Sure, it's not a lot better, but your version is very similar to the Fighter in many ways so it's a good comparison.

I want it to be a good comparison and I want there to be compelling reasons to multiclass. By multiclassing, you delay mind blade progression and feat progression. I think you are overestimating the usefulness of the bonus feats, when in fact, many of them will be needed just to have a competent mind-blade (again, the mind blade is a 1d6 piercing weapon with 19-20/x2 crit). The fighters and barbarians of the world are in no danger of being out-damaged by a soulknife...but I'd like them all to be competent at hitting monsters.

Weapon Focus really isn't optimal for this class, I think, since it doesn't get a fighter's later feats like Weapon Specialization. But I suppose you're meaning to make it a prereq of Shape Mind Blade. And anyway, as mentioned your class has other benefits that make up for the miscellany that a standard Soulknife would get, the extra BAB and PP and psionic power (those other abilities aren't really all that good). Again, the ranged weakness is nothing, they can easily afford to pour money into a good ranged weapon. 1 feat or multiclass level will get them composite longbow proficiency if they want it, but crossbows aren't all that bad (and there's always the Rapid Reload feat). The same can get them full armor profs.

Aye, but there are a limited number of feats. It's easy to theorize and say how easily they can overcome their deficiencies...but the cost is still present. Compare a soulknife who is patching up his deficiencies with a fighter who is just improving his strengths.

Which really isn't a drawback for it; it's still superior to Fighters even if it gives up 1 level for Psychic Warrior benefits (great proficiencies, awesome selection for a bonus feat, a handy psionic power, and possibly some bonus points from Wisdom). And I think you're forgetting the fact that this character can still spend money on a backup weapon if he feels the need, like if the DM has a preference for constructs/undead. He just doesn't need one so much; a simple +1 morningstar or such will do him just fine for those few cases where his mind blade is ineffectual.

It's not a matter of possibly buying a back-up weapon, at high levels you will be depending on back-up weapons in a few situations (ranged combat, combat vs creatures without minds, combat in anti-magic zones). At the levels when a Soulknife will buy a back-up +1 Morningstar (let's say, 6-10th level) his mind blade is at best a +2 weapon with 2 enhancements (let's say +1d4 psionic damage and keen). But a 10th level fighter can easily have a +2 Flaming Greatsword, outdamaging the Soulknife by quite a margin (assuming the Soulknife took Shape Mind Blade and is wielding it 2-handed for 1d10 damage).


Huh? That's not its 'sole purpose' at all. Psionic Talent is in the XPH as an update and renaming of the Inner Strength feat from 3.0. It's extra power points, that can be taken multiple times, and improves a bit each time, as an equivalent to the spellcasters' access to the Extra Slot feat or whatever (to cast more spells each day). A Psychic Warrior with less-than-stellar Wisdom may take it for extra points so he doesn't burn out his main abilities all in 1-2 fights each day. It's a good 1st-level feat to take sometimes. And someone who just dips a bit into a psionic class can use Psionic Talent to make better use of their power(s); example: Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 3/Barbarian 4+, take Practiced Manifester and 1+ copies of Psionic Talent, use augmented Expansion at the start of every fight just before Raging and it'll last quite a while as a big damage boost. Etc. Though it is a bit weaker in 3.5 since psionic feats no longer require spending power points or having a certain number of them left in reserve.

I remember Inner Strength and back in 3.0 I dont think the feat options were as rich as they are now. These days it seems ludicrous for a Psywar or (especially) a Psion to take it as a feat unless it is to qualify for a prestige class.

Near as I can tell your Focused Talent only serves to fill the same purposes only better, and make the Soulknife better for multiclassing (rather than just giving it some power points directly, or making its few power-like abilities not cost any points as in the XPH).

I have decided to change Focused Talent to a class ability. At each level the Soulknife gains 1 power point. I think the Soulknife's class abilities should cost power points. First, it gives an incentive to multiclass (a Psion/Soulknife going for Knife to the Soul is giving up a lot of mind-blade progression, but could be a decent gish). Second it allows a Soulknife a bit of resource management. Mind Blank for the day or use some of your class's powers? Vigor up before a fight? It is in all cases an extremely limited amount of power points. At 20th level 20 power points is a tiny amount of power...points.

Except from your mind blade description I can't quite grasp how it's supposed to work/what it's supposed to do, and how that would help with multiclassing. I think I'm understanding now that the purpose is that a Soulknife multiclassed into a psionic prestige class could improve their mind blade instead of manifesting ability, but it didn't quite make sense at first, and I'm still not sure I'm guessing right from the way it's worded.

Yes, I posted the structure but didn't really detail it that well. I still haven't managed to, but basically it is standardized mind blade progression. If you eliminate all instances of those powers, and look at the base Soulknife class (either my version, or the XPH's) you get this:

1 Mind Blade Progression Level 1
2
3
4 Mind Blade Progression Level 2
5
6 Mind Blade Progression Level 3
7
8 Mind Blade Progression Level 4
9
10 Mind Blade Progression Level 5
11
12 Mind Blade Progression Level 6
13
14 Mind Blade Progression Level 7
15
16 Mind Blade Progression Level 8
17
18 Mind Blade Progression Level 9
19
20 Mind Blade Progression Level 10

That was the reason for creating the 3 variant Soulknife classes, each built around the Mind Blade progression as printed in the XPH. Having a standardized progression allows you to easily (or more easily) give existing material a mind blade progression, or enable a rule like substituting 2 levels of manifester increase for 1 level of mind blade progression.

Reducing the Base Attack Bonus probably balances them out, I dunno. It either makes them close to balanced, or a bit underpowered like the XPH version.

I don't like the thought of going through this much work to end up with the same problem. I guess I must tackle it from the standpoint of balancing a Full BAB Soulknife.

By "bard-like" I mean extremely limited, like the various casters that don't have full casting progressions (Rangers, Paladins, etc.).
If they could learn just a few select powers- Inertial Armor, Force Screen, Biofeedback & Expansion to name a few- and only 1 or 2 per level, with very limited power points (perhaps no more than 2PSP/Lvl), they'd be much more effective because they'd be able to get to their intended targets (spellcasters) more easily without becoming overpowering.

That is the realm of the PsyWarrior. I strictly do NOT want it to be easy for the soulknife to get Expansion. The whole point is being an option to be used side-by-side with a Psionic Warrior (or multiclassed with), not overriding the class. I added Vigor to create a progression of limited powers (to go with Bladewind and Knife to the Soul). I added Mind Blank as a defensive option for dedicated Soulknives. Bard-like Psionic Fighters already have the Psionic Warrior, or the Psion/Fighter multiclassing option. I am trying to fill different shoes with the Soulknife.

I'd also like to point out that I appreciate this criticism as it makes me inspect my methods and goals more closely and will hopefully yield a better solution.
 
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I just threw Expansion out there as a "fer xample." I agree that it should probably be a power that remains unique to PsyWars.

It would probably work just as well if the Soulblade PC had to choose one of the Psion subsets to choose from- you know, Nomad, etc.- but with only a fraction of the PSPs, the power useage would be hoarded for maximum impact.

OTOH, the Soulblade could be restructured to use PSPs in a totally unique way- boosting the various Mindblade powers beyond their baseline, for instance.
 

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