Soulknife as a PrC (1.0)
- Thread starter Technik4
- Start date
Just like arcane casters have to keep their spellcasting potential seperated, you could simply write that only the PSPs from the Soulknife's pool can be used to enhance the mindblade.
Arkhandus
First Post
Eh, whatever, obviously I'm not going to contribute anything at this point. Just at least playtest a few Soulknives using your versions and standard PCs, alright? Like a straight Soulknife 10 vs. Fighter 10 vs. Psychic Warrior 10 vs. Rogue 10, or somesuch playtest, and a Psychic Warrior 4/Soulknife 6 vs. Barbarian 2/Fighter 8 perhaps. I dunno. And keeping in mind the soulknife's better skills for non-combat stuff.
As for the separate pool of points or something......just no. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever with the way Psionics is set up, and it has nothing in common with the wizard/sorcerer or wizard/bard divide or the like. Those use different sources for their magic, while psionic characters all draw on the same energy from their own mind and body.
If you wanted to give them mind blade improvements based on power point expenditures......just give them at particular levels. So what if a Psion 4/Soulknife 6 has tons more power points and pumps up his mind blade by +3d6 damage or whatever each round beyond what the Soulknife 10 does......the Psion/Soulknife doesn't have the higher enhancement bonus, special weapon abilities, and such, and doesn't have the 10th-level special-mindblade-augmentation ability or whatever. Well, as long as you actually give Soulknives something to gain from level advancement, beyond the simple enhancement bonus and enhancement-equivalent abilities for their mind blade. At present yours only give occasional bonus feats besides that. But since you want them to have a full BAB and be a frontline warrior with good HP and all, you can't really add much without making them very seriously broken (unless you just replace some of their stuff).
As for the separate pool of points or something......just no. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever with the way Psionics is set up, and it has nothing in common with the wizard/sorcerer or wizard/bard divide or the like. Those use different sources for their magic, while psionic characters all draw on the same energy from their own mind and body.
If you wanted to give them mind blade improvements based on power point expenditures......just give them at particular levels. So what if a Psion 4/Soulknife 6 has tons more power points and pumps up his mind blade by +3d6 damage or whatever each round beyond what the Soulknife 10 does......the Psion/Soulknife doesn't have the higher enhancement bonus, special weapon abilities, and such, and doesn't have the 10th-level special-mindblade-augmentation ability or whatever. Well, as long as you actually give Soulknives something to gain from level advancement, beyond the simple enhancement bonus and enhancement-equivalent abilities for their mind blade. At present yours only give occasional bonus feats besides that. But since you want them to have a full BAB and be a frontline warrior with good HP and all, you can't really add much without making them very seriously broken (unless you just replace some of their stuff).
Satori
First Post
Technik, this is Nicholas from your group.
You've done a lot of work here! You've also been hit pretty hard by some critics!
I'll send you an email in a bit, but let me weigh in on this idea since I'll likely be encountering this at some point.
1. I agree that the Soulknife Base Class is weak...but it isn't unplayable. It flutters somewhere between the Monk and the Bard in usefulness, and is typically played more for "Flavor" than any perceived benefit.
-That being said, I don't necessarily believe that an underpowered class needs to be pumped up to overshadow other classes.
Your 20 level revised Soulknife Base Class has d10 HD, Full BAB, 4 SP/level, a GAGGLE of feats, and the equivalent of a +8 FREE weapon...not to mention several critical powers like Bladewind, Knife to the Soul, and others.
In effect, why would I play a Fighter or Psionic Warrior when this option is available? I'll have the same HD, the same BAB (higher than Psywarrior), as many feats (more than the Psywarrior), more skill points, and a handful of VERY powerful abilities (Bladewind and Knife to the Soul are HUGE).
My opinion?
-Lower the BAB to 3/4, lower the HD to d8, and you're ROUGHLY equal to Psywarrior.
-Lower the SP to 2/level, HALVE your number of feats, and you're roughly equal to a Fighter.
2. The 15th level PrClass has some minor issues as well.
-The class is currently enterable at 4th level. This bothers me. Raise the Concentration requirement to 8 ranks to fix this.
-Too many bonus feats. +1 Manifestor and 1 Bonus Feat are NOT equal. 1 Bonus feat every other level is the equivalent to a Fighter, and is the Fighter's ONLY claim to fame. +1 Manifestor level is a HUGE penalty to any manifestor...which means it sufficiently balances out the class. Remove the bonus feat option.
-You delayed Knife to the Soul four levels in exchange for the ability to use Mind Blank as a power. That seems fair.
-The end result of a 20th level Soulknife is a +9 Mindblade. The end result of your 15th level Soulknife is also a +9 Mindblade. That seems fair.
-The final issue with this PrClass is the requirements. Prestige Classes are meant to cost the PC something in terms of "Crunchy Munchkin Power" to enter. A wizard has to sacrifice one caster level by taking a level of fighter in order to enter Eldritch Knight. A Psywarrior has to waste a feat on "Track" to get into "Slayer". Either way, a Base Class needs to sacrifice SOMETHING to get into an ideal Prestige Class.
None of your classes require this sacrifice. You sort of stumble upon the requirements as you level, as the requirements are natural skill choices for the class. I think the sacrifice is important.
3. 10th level Soulknife Prestige Class.
-Add a sacrifice (wasted feat, etc...)
-Lower the BAB to 3/4 and the HD to d8
or
-Remove the bonus feat option and lower the SP to 2.
---
Let me end by saying that I think your analytical way of looking at possible Soulknife possibilities is admirable. In fact, with these changes I'd actually consider playing some variant of Soulknife in the unforseeable future. I'd be curious to see what you'd come up with if I asked your help on some "Character Class Ideas" I've recently been stewing over (one being a combination of Palading/Monk that doesn't slobber danglies like the Argent Fist).
However, I do think that creating a class for your own character is ALWAYS a dangerous path. Temptation is simply too great...and you aren't tempered by the Silver Flame as Scott and I are ;p
You've done a lot of work here! You've also been hit pretty hard by some critics!
I'll send you an email in a bit, but let me weigh in on this idea since I'll likely be encountering this at some point.
1. I agree that the Soulknife Base Class is weak...but it isn't unplayable. It flutters somewhere between the Monk and the Bard in usefulness, and is typically played more for "Flavor" than any perceived benefit.
-That being said, I don't necessarily believe that an underpowered class needs to be pumped up to overshadow other classes.
Your 20 level revised Soulknife Base Class has d10 HD, Full BAB, 4 SP/level, a GAGGLE of feats, and the equivalent of a +8 FREE weapon...not to mention several critical powers like Bladewind, Knife to the Soul, and others.
In effect, why would I play a Fighter or Psionic Warrior when this option is available? I'll have the same HD, the same BAB (higher than Psywarrior), as many feats (more than the Psywarrior), more skill points, and a handful of VERY powerful abilities (Bladewind and Knife to the Soul are HUGE).
My opinion?
-Lower the BAB to 3/4, lower the HD to d8, and you're ROUGHLY equal to Psywarrior.
-Lower the SP to 2/level, HALVE your number of feats, and you're roughly equal to a Fighter.
2. The 15th level PrClass has some minor issues as well.
-The class is currently enterable at 4th level. This bothers me. Raise the Concentration requirement to 8 ranks to fix this.
-Too many bonus feats. +1 Manifestor and 1 Bonus Feat are NOT equal. 1 Bonus feat every other level is the equivalent to a Fighter, and is the Fighter's ONLY claim to fame. +1 Manifestor level is a HUGE penalty to any manifestor...which means it sufficiently balances out the class. Remove the bonus feat option.
-You delayed Knife to the Soul four levels in exchange for the ability to use Mind Blank as a power. That seems fair.
-The end result of a 20th level Soulknife is a +9 Mindblade. The end result of your 15th level Soulknife is also a +9 Mindblade. That seems fair.
-The final issue with this PrClass is the requirements. Prestige Classes are meant to cost the PC something in terms of "Crunchy Munchkin Power" to enter. A wizard has to sacrifice one caster level by taking a level of fighter in order to enter Eldritch Knight. A Psywarrior has to waste a feat on "Track" to get into "Slayer". Either way, a Base Class needs to sacrifice SOMETHING to get into an ideal Prestige Class.
None of your classes require this sacrifice. You sort of stumble upon the requirements as you level, as the requirements are natural skill choices for the class. I think the sacrifice is important.
3. 10th level Soulknife Prestige Class.
-Add a sacrifice (wasted feat, etc...)
-Lower the BAB to 3/4 and the HD to d8
or
-Remove the bonus feat option and lower the SP to 2.
---
Let me end by saying that I think your analytical way of looking at possible Soulknife possibilities is admirable. In fact, with these changes I'd actually consider playing some variant of Soulknife in the unforseeable future. I'd be curious to see what you'd come up with if I asked your help on some "Character Class Ideas" I've recently been stewing over (one being a combination of Palading/Monk that doesn't slobber danglies like the Argent Fist).
However, I do think that creating a class for your own character is ALWAYS a dangerous path. Temptation is simply too great...and you aren't tempered by the Silver Flame as Scott and I are ;p
OK- a different approach then.
Structure the PSP-based mindblade pumps more like other powers- they take X amount of time to put into effect, last a certain amount of time, can only be pumped a certain number of times. The mindblade can only have a certain number of PSP pumped into it before it "burns out" for a certain amount of time. Perhaps there is even a certain range in which it can be "overloaded" before said burnout occurs.
With the Mindblade's PSP pumps limited in absolute capacity, having a larger PSP pool is almost meaningless- the Soulknife could keep the Mindblade pumped longer, but not any higher.
Satori said:
Hey Nicholas!
The real problem with the soulknife base class is the BAB. If you take 2 levels of fighter, at level 20 you still have 2 BAB, 2 bonus feats, and a decent fort save. If you dip into 2 levels of Soulknife you get 1 BAB, a few bonus feats, all related to your mindblade (WF Mind Blade, Throw Mind Blade, Wild Talent), and 2 decent saves (Will and Ref). However, the mind blade is basically useless. Even if you attempt to multiclass evenly with a class, 10 levels of XPH soulknife doesn't multiclass nicely. You would end up with a +2 weapon with 2 enhancements and a rogue-like BAB.
My design goal is to create a class roughly equivalent to the monk. There are similarities between the two classes, after all (especially given my bent on making them more modular with choices for bonus feats).
My revised Soulknife essentially has this over the XPH version:
1. Customizability - you end up with less powers for your mind blade, but you can customize which ones you have. At the end of the day, the XPH version has more things he can do with the mind blade, my version just hits better. If you aren't using those feats to improve the mind blade, your mind blade is not going to be that useful...and that is the biggest benefit of the class (+9 Free Weapon!).
Frankly, there aren't many people that can come up with great reasons to every play a straight-class fighter, so I'm not going to go there (though I can think of some flavor reasons). As to PsyWar vs Soulknife, thats easy. It's the difference between playing an Eldritch Knight (Ftr/Wiz gish) or a straight Fighter. The Psywar is a very balanced class as is. They get a respectable power progression, bonus feats, and 3/4 BAB. The only thing I think they got shafted on is skill points. I suppose this was done because no class seems to get Heavy Armor Proficiency AND decent skill pools, I guess practicing how to wear full plate takes a lot of time
Lowering the BAB to 3/4 and the HD to d8 and you're way behind the Psywarrior. Remember, they get powers to play with. The soulknife gets the mind blade...and that's it (which is why I added Vigor at lower levels. Without taking feats to improve their PPs, it will be very limited (and their manifster level is already gimped) and it will be a decision to spend the points and still maintain a reserve of points for feats, etc). The Psywar also has medium and heavy armor, as well as martial weapon proficiency.
Lowering the SP is not a big deal, but remember the Soulknife is getting very little for proficiencies. Since he wasn't practicing getting into and out of Full Plate, I think 4 skill points is no biggie. As to the bonus feats, a bonus feat is not necessarily equal to a fighter bonus feat. Check the list of allowable bonus feats again - there is no Power Attack, Cleave, no Weapon Spec, no Mounted Chain, no Ranged Chain, not even that many utility bonus feats. It's limited to allow you to customize your Soulknife ("I don't know how to throw my mind blade, but I can use Psychic Strike!"). In most situations I think the Fighter (with equivalent gp for his level) would mop the floor with any soulknife, even my version. Since that's not what D&D is really about, I also think the soulknife wouldn't outshine the tank class.
All the requirements for both Prestige classes are based around the PsyWar. My goal was to emulate the 15-level Prestige Classes from Unearthed Arcana, but I didn't actually look at them and assumed they didn't require much to get into a prestige-base class. Turns out they do, so I'm thinking of raising the requirements to "Must be able to manifest a 1st level power" and "Must have proficiency with an exotic weapon". Raising Concentration to 8 seems appropriate too. (The exotic weapon is a bit I'm taking from the Plangent from Bruce Cordell's Hyperconsciousness.)
Again, a Soulknife bonus feat is not equivalent to a Fighter Bonus feat. The fighter's claim to fame is his role, that of a difficult to take down (with clerical back-up) hero who dishes it out in melee combat. The soulknife, even with some multiclassing, will not be out-damaging the Fighter (and will probably have less AC). In exchange, they have some use as either an infiltrator (Hide/MS) or scout (Spot/Listen).
I know that typically PrCs do things like that, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Unless the feat is linked to the class (the Enduring Mightblaster needs Endurance!) it's just poor design to mechanically balance a powerful PrC with harsh requirements. Also, if you look at the progression of the mind blade, it's hardly 'ideal'. I mean, our 5th level (since I raised the Concentration) character takes this as his 6th level. He can manifest a magical but no bonusical mind blade. By 8th level, you've picked up a bonus feat and the mind blade is +1. A +1 weapon at 8th level is not going to outshine anyone. By 11th level the mind blade is +2, with a +1 enhancement (which is taken from a list). Again, I think most fighter-types are going to be packing at least a +3 weapon by 11th level (if not better). The soul-knife really doesn't start catching up until 17th level, when his Mind Blade is +4 with +3 in enhancements. That's a pretty nice weapon...but you've dedicated 12 levels to a prestige class to get it! You also don't have the flexibility of a soulknife since you've only gotten 4 bonus feats to enhance it (you're gonna need WF Mind Blade and Shape Mind Blade, then it's a toss up between Free Draw, Throw Mind Blade, GWF Mind Blade, and Improved Critical).
I can see needing a requirement to get into this class (the 10-level PrC) beyond the basics. The HD is not a big issue, I kept it from the XPH and the other 2 classes. Since this class has no ranged capability, it's going to need the hp. The bonus feats are just there to improve the mind-blade. This class suffers even more than the 15-level one, lets look at some highlights:
9th level character acuires the mind blade
10th the mind blade is a +1 d6 piercing weapon, strictly back-up (that and the BAB are all you've gotten)
11th you get a bonus feat. WF or Throw are your best options.
12th +2, still not worth using as a primary weapon. If you took WF, you take Shape Mind Blade so its d8 or 2-h d10 damage
13 +2 with +1 enhancements and you get bladewind. If you haven't been improving or finding better weapons, it might work as a primary weapon, but it's on the weak side. You do have bladewind if you feel like being a hero though.
14 +3 with +1 enhancements, and you get another bonus feat so you can improve critical or gwf your blade (or shape it if you haven't already). I'm not sure about gold values, but this could be almost on par with other fighter-types primary weapons.
15 +3 with +1 enhancements, learn Knife to the Soul, and a bonus feat (definitely Imp Critical by this point).
16 +4 with +1 enhancements, now you are cooking with gas!
17 +4 with +2 enhancements, Woohoo, I spent 9 levels and all I got is the shiny mind blade. I mean, SLASH!
18 +5 with +2 enhancements, time to sign up to kill dragons.
Without the Bonus feats you spend 10 levels to get a +5 short sword (not even a rapier) which you can spend 2 feats to improve to a longsword (by your own char-level feats). That just doesn't seem very 'prestige' to me. As far as skill points, I think it's a problem with the Fighter base class (which seemed to have been ammended in the Bo9s with their fighter variants). Rangers and Barbarians both get full BAB and skill points, after all.
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Woohoo! Success!
Allow me to quell your fear - I will probably end up taking the Plangent class for my current character in the eberron game.
Next up in the never-ending rebalancing of the class - Mind Blade as a Power (which somewhat mirrors Call Weaponry) and the generic PsiFighter!
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