Speed Enchantment and Two Weapon Fighting

[kreynolds]

For some stupid reason it never occured to me that a speed weapon would give you an extra attack even on a standard action. I couldn't for the life of me work out why it was such an expensive ability... now it is all clear!

LOL I can't tell if you're joking or not, but it's funny either way.

 

[Mordeth]

Re: Re: <--- confused

You have two weapons of speed. To get the extra attack with your primary hand, you need only swing with your primary hand. To get the extra attack with your off-hand, you need only swing your off-hand. You can't swing with both your primary hand and your off-hand unless you take the full-attack action, thus you cannot get both extra speed attacks unless you take tthe full-attack action.

Not sure if that answers your question though.

Yeah, I understand. I know a DM that tries to be an uber sphinxter rules lawyer and just trying to get ultimate clarification. What you said makes total sense, its just that he reads the multiple attack line and says "to get more than one attack a round, you must take the full attack action."

I guess you have to look at a weapon of speed a little diffrently than that. Weapon of speed attacks so fast that in a normal weapons swing, it gets another swing in, ie... 1 attack action=2 attacks.

No problem at all with what you said, just looking for some better verbage I guess

/bow kreynolds

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: <--- confused

I know a DM that tries to be an uber sphinxter rules lawyer and just trying to get ultimate clarification. What you said makes total sense, its just that he reads the multiple attack line and says "to get more than one attack a round, you must take the full attack action."

Sorry to hear that, seriously. If it makes you feel better, tell him he makes a god-awful rules lawyer.

I guess you have to look at a weapon of speed a little diffrently than that. Weapon of speed attacks so fast that in a normal weapons swing, it gets another swing in, ie... 1 attack action=2 attacks.

Exactly. Basically, the weapon becomes quick enough that you get a free "special" partial action, like you normally do with haste, only in the case of a speed weapon, you can only use the extra action(s) to get extra attack(s).

No problem at all with what you said, just looking for some better verbage I guess

Cool.

 

[Plane Sailing]

LOL I can't tell if you're joking or not, but it's funny either way.

Must be my English accent

Seriously, I just glossed over it and automatically assumed that it was an extra attack during a full attack.

Makes a lot more sense as a +4 value now

 

[BlindKobold]

You do NOT have to take a full-round action to get more than one ATTACK per round. End of story. Anyone who says differently needs to go back and read some rules.

Here are but a FEW examples:

Haste. - Haste gives you an extra partial action. You may attack with this partial action or you may dance the funky chicken. This is irregardless of any other previous actions in the round. So you could move your full move (move equivelent)... then attack (standard)... then attack again (extra haste partial).

ATTACK of oppurtunity - This is a special case... but it's STILL an attack. You can make an attack of oppurtunity on a creature who provokes you irregardless of what type of action you took/are taking/will take. With Combat Reflexes, you can make MANY attacks of oppurtunity.

Expert Tactician - When an opponent is denied his dexterity bonus, you make an extra attack on him irregardless of whether you are using a full round action. A common use is for rogues to Bluff (move equivilent), then attack as a sneak attack (bonus attack from expert tactician) and then attack (standard attack).

Improved Trip - If you successfully trip an opponent, you make a free attack on them. In other words... move up to the person (move equivilent), trip attack (standard attack) and then, provided the trip was successful) extra attack (improved trip extra attack).

NOTE - Trip is a validate attack option to use during an attack of oppurtunity which if sucecssful, would give 2 attacks (AoO as a trip, then regular attack from Improved Trip) without taking a full round action.

So what do the above examples prove?! NOTHING! Except that the "no multiple attacks without a full round action" is a worthless argument.

That said... here's my take.

Speed weapons use the "haste" action, so if you were hasted, you couldn't utilize both at the same time. It's like trying to combine two bonuses of the same type (armor bonuses don't stack, enhancement bonuses don't stack, etc.).

HOWEVER, I would allow both weapons of speed to use the SAME haste action and go off simultaneously, thus invoking all the penalties associated with two-weapon fighting.

Why? For one reason.... if someone dumps two feats into Two-weapon fighting and Ambidexterity, there has to be SOME pay-off.... even if it doesn't come until you can afford to buy (or have someone make) Speed weapons... which shouldn't be until at least level 12... when the wizard is teleporting all over the place and disintegrating things.

I would NOT allow a munckin player to try to claim that they go off differently and therefore you can effectively fighting with two weapons without the feats.

But hey... that's just my opinion.

 

[dcollins]

I must admit that this is one ruling of the Sage's which I find difficult to see where it came from (that is, the ruling that you get a speed weapon's bonus in a standard attack). The fact that the full attack requirement specially mentions getting more than one attack from a magic item (PH p. 124), and that it seems like an extraordinarily unique exception to the rule, is the major sticking point in this regard.

 

[kreynolds]

The fact that the full attack requirement specially mentions getting more than one attack from a magic item (PH p. 124),

What that passage doesn't limit you to, however, is spells. Nowhere does it state that if you get an extra attack per action because of a spell are you required to use a full-attack action. I realize that this isn't a rock solid argument, but by the same token, that passage is poorly worded. Haste gives you an extra partial action per round, not just an extra attack. You can use this extra partial action in any way you like, within the confines of a partial action of course. A speed weapon gives you an extra attack, yes, but it is the method in which it gives this attack that is undeniable. A speed weapon does not simply give you an extra attack. It gives you an extra attack like haste (though it is not a full partial action in and off itself), and it gives this extra attack when you use the weapon. If speed weapons granted you another attack with the attack action itself, that would be different, but the bottom line is that they don't work that way. They give you an extra attack, just like haste, but can only be used as an attack, as stated in the Speed description.

Personally, I don't see how there's anything to debate, except for semantics. The intent is very clear.

 

[dcollins]

The reasoning that speed is like haste, isn't quite so clear, when speed says that it "does not grant the benefits of a haste spell, so an additional partial action is not what is granted, simply an extra single attack".

I'm personally unable to read that without coming away with an intent pretty much opposite to that of the Sage's ruling.

 

[kreynolds]

The reasoning that speed is like haste, isn't quite so clear, when speed says that it "does not grant the benefits of a haste spell, so an additional partial action is not what is granted, simply an extra single attack".

I'm personally unable to read that without coming away with an intent pretty much opposite to that of the Sage's ruling.

Then we have completely opposite opinions, which are also very firm in our own minds. That's cool.

But I must ask you, is the intent that you perceive balanced at +4? I would surely hope not.

 

[Crothian]

I don't think speed has to be like haste. The important thing is that it doesn't stack.

Personally, I think they said that to ensure people don't think weapons of speed gives you +4 haste AC bonus, and don't try to use the extra action for anything except an attack. So, weapon of speed is like a very strict haste. All you can do is attack.