spell damage 1d8/level question

[Sir Hawkeye]

I'd go with 3rd.
Better damage than fireball, but worse range and targets.
I'd put delivery at equal. People who would prefer Reflex to Fort are going to be the ones with the best touch AC's. Plus, it has 3 "delivery inhbitors" (Attack, Save, SR) compared to fireball's 2 (although need to be careful with aim could count as one)

Similar comparison to Flame Arrow. Better damage and worse range. I don't recall if Flame Arrow has a save or not though.

And if you're looking for a name for the spell, I suggest "Arc Lightning"

 

[Jens]

Fireball, a 3rd level spell, caps out at 10d6 points of damage, for a total of 60 points of damage. This spell, if indeed capped, would cap out a 80 points of damage. You really need to keep in mind that the standard damage die used to benchmark a spell is a d6, as that is the most popular die when concerning direct damage dealing spells, such as Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball (errated to d6), Acid Orb, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, etc. Taking that into consideration, a 4th level spell has a maximum damage die limit of 15 die (d6 for benchmark purposes) for a single target (maximum 90 points of damage), but this spell has too many advantages for me to give it max damage or a lower level.

Somehow I feel misreprented here (your quote missed your own comment in between), but nevermind. Btw, I think it's better to use average damage than maximum.

Where do you see that "the standard damage die used to benchmark a spell is a d6"? I see no such thing for arcane spells on DMG page 95-6.

Which ("too many") advantages does this spell have compared to a Fireball? (Ranged) attack roll + Fort save is worse than Reflex save imb. Shorter range too, and fewer targets too.

Also, a fireball is a 20-foot radius burst, which has the potential to affect multiple targets, and that's also the drawback to the spell because you have to be careful how you place it.

Since when is a greater area a weakness? Which would be more powerful/popular, the standard fireball or one only affecting one creature??

This spell, however, uses a ranged touch attack, and no matter how you cut it, it's easy as hell to hit 80% - 90% of your targets with a ranged touch attack, not to mention the fact that a Fortitude save is worse than a Reflex, especially for those classes that have Evasion, or for anyone that has a Ring of Evasion, as it won't help them. So, that is quite obviously a benefit of the spell, and I never said it wasn't.

I'd say the two together are certainly no better than auto-hit and reflex save. How many monsters have evasion? Or good reflex saves?

So, we have higher damage die (d8 instead of the popular d6), an easier and safer delivery method, and a tougher save. Not a 3rd level spell in my book.

Or, we have a spell affecting *much* fewer targets with a no-safer delivery method and an equivalent save, and a slightly higher damage die. That's a 3rd level spell imb.

Ack. I get annoyed when re-reading my post, tougher than I prefer. But I feel you misrepresented what I wrote, so... No hard feelings?

Edit: Maybe it would be fair to say that I think the Acid Bolt spell I suggested above is accaptable. (+got a couple more 2nd level damage spells if you want.)

 

[Cloudgatherer]

let's make it like this then:

1d8 electricity damage per level
target one creature only
ranged touch attack
close range
fortitude save for 1/2 damage

what level would that be, and why?

thanks in advance

I like this idea for a spell. Might write up my own version...but for now...

As others have pointed out, it depends on the damage cap.

If we max it at 10d8, I'd suggest putting it at 3rdlevel. The spell is comparable to flame arrow, more damage than fireball, but more limiting.

If you want a 15d8 cap, put it at 5th level (cone of cold and other 5th level spells have this cap).

If you want no cap whatsoever, then 7th level is what you want (maybe even 6th). One of the few spells that actually does uncapped damage using d8 is Horrid Wilting, an 8th level spell with long range and affects a whole bunch of people.

 

[Gwarthkam]

thanks for the answers so far guys.

I didn't put in a damage cap in my initial question because I would determine that from the spell level using the caps from DMG p. 95.

I don't care bout damage type either, just listed electricity because it's a common damage type, and I wanted to keep it simple.

I sought an estimate of the level a spell would need to be in order to deal 1d8/level instead of the usual 1d6/level.

There are a few examples for spells affecting more than one creature in PHB with 1d8/level so in that case I got a clue, but since there are no examples of 1d8/level spells for one target I asked for your opinions and preferrably backed by refference to an official source.

The close range and ranged touch attack was put in because I wanted to know where you would put the threshold between 1d6 and 1d8 for single creature damage spells, with minimum effort.

I'm amazed to see that people would put it as a 2. level spell, I had imagined that 4. would be the lowest imaginable (again I let DMG p. 95 determine damage caps), and my DM would probably say 5. or 6.

thanks again for your opinions and advice, please continue the debate.

 

[Xarlen]

Let's not forget it's sneak attackable.

Edit: Also, I think the 'benchmark' being that Clerics use d8's for rolls (Cures, Inflicts, Searing Light, Unholy Blight, Blade Barrier, etc) and Arcane spellcasters use d6's.

 

[kreynolds]

Somehow I feel misreprented here (your quote missed your own comment in between), but nevermind.

I didn't intend to misrepresent you. I was simply trying to lump it together. Besides, if I was trying to misrepresent you, believe me, you'd know, or worse, you wouldn't even suspect.

Btw, I think it's better to use average damage than maximum.

You're probably right.

Where do you see that "the standard damage die used to benchmark a spell is a d6"? I see no such thing for arcane spells on DMG page 95-6.

You know why you don't see it? Because it's not on that page. In fact, it's not on any of the pages, nor in any of the books. In fact, I didn't even say it was on any page. In fact, I gave you a list of examples of spells where the d6 is the "popular" die to use with direct damage spells, such as those I listed. I can only assume that you didn't catch the edited post in time. If that's the case, no biggie.

Which ("too many") advantages does this spell have compared to a Fireball?

I already listed them. If you don't agree, that's fine, that's your opinion. You have the right to have your own opinion, as do I have the right to have my own opinion.

Since when is a greater area a weakness?

Once again, I already stated why it's a weakness. Ever been in a tight dungeon corridor fighting a bunch of baddies and the best damaging spell you have is a Fireball? It's a pain to place it safely, especially when your allies are kinda scattered about. It's most certainly a drawback. Sure, when you're talking about an open battlefield and the baddies are conveniently bunched together, waiting to accept your Fireball with open arms, it's not a drawback at all. Like I said, I was just stating my opinion.

Which would be more powerful/popular, the standard fireball or one only affecting one creature??

Obviously, a Fireball that affected only one creature but didn't have any other advantages over a standard Fireball wouldn't be the popular choice. That wasn't a very valid question, and it wasn't well thought out.

I'd say the two together are certainly no better than auto-hit and reflex save.

I'm not catching your meaning here. I think I got lost.

How many monsters have evasion?

I don't know. Would you like me to count? Are you forgetting about the Ring of Evasion (which I already mentioned), a very popular magic item that is arguably on just about everyone's equipment wish list?

Or good reflex saves?

Once again, should I count? Monsters aren't the only things you need to take into account. Don't forget about NPCs, like, oh, I don't know, Rogues or Monks?

Or, we have a spell affecting *much* fewer targets with a no-safer delivery method and an equivalent save, and a slightly higher damage die. That's a 3rd level spell imb.

I don't know. I'm still thinkin' 4th.

Ack. I get annoyed when re-reading my post, tougher than I prefer. But I feel you misrepresented what I wrote, so... No hard feelings?

Like I said, it wasn't my intention to misrepresent your post. So no...no hard feelings.

Edit: Maybe it would be fair to say that I think the Acid Bolt spell I suggested above is accaptable. (+got a couple more 2nd level damage spells if you want.)

So far, I think your Acid Bolt is in fact a pretty good example. Nice job.

I do get the feeling that we're cross posting though.

 

[kreynolds]

Edit: Also, I think the 'benchmark' being that Clerics use d8's for rolls (Cures, Inflicts, Searing Light, Unholy Blight, Blade Barrier, etc) and Arcane spellcasters use d6's.

Yup. The trend that I posted, the example spells, were all arcane. Pretty interesting how arcane and divine spells differ from one another. I dig that. Keeps them unique.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would say 5th level, but using different reasoning.

Horrid Wilting is a spell that effects 1 target per level, for 1d8/level damage. Fort half. This is an 8th level spell.

Now, this could be considered a "mass spell" version of something called, for the sake of argument "Wilting" which affected one target for 1d8/level. In the same way that Mass Charm can affect several targets as if with the 5th level Charm Monster spell.

(The +3 levels for a Mass spell is consistent enough that I made a Mass spell metamagic feat for my campaign)

So, I would suggest 5th level for a spell which did 1d8 per level to a single target with a fortitude save for half damage, and which is not energy, so there are no immunities to it. Weaking it by making it an energy spell should perhaps bring it down to 4th level.

Just another angle on the subject

Cheers