The calculations for figuring the DC of a spell cast by a character has always rubbed me the wrong way: There's no accounting for the spellcaster's level. A 20th level wizard with 18 Int should seemingly have a higher DC to save vs Charm Person (for instance) than a 1st level wizard with 18 Int. Ok, so by 20th level, only an idiot wouldn't have his Int to 19, but bear with me. It makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how to implement it without unbalancing the spellcasters greatly. Something minimal, perhaps, even a +1 for every six spellcaster levels. Any thoughts? Is this even a good idea?
Spell DC modified by level
- Thread starter Emongnome
- Start date
Per the rules, you have the following options to boost save DCs:
- Spell Focus
- Greater Spell Focus (if you're using the splatbooks)
- increased stat (should be straightforward to get to 30+ by 20th level)
- Heighten Spell
- Use the higher-level versions of a spell (charm monster instead of charm person, mass hold instead of hold person, etc)
Really, saving against a blast-spellcaster's top-level spells can already be very difficult. If all of their spells were equally deadly, that would be Not Good.
- Spell Focus
- Greater Spell Focus (if you're using the splatbooks)
- increased stat (should be straightforward to get to 30+ by 20th level)
- Heighten Spell
- Use the higher-level versions of a spell (charm monster instead of charm person, mass hold instead of hold person, etc)
Really, saving against a blast-spellcaster's top-level spells can already be very difficult. If all of their spells were equally deadly, that would be Not Good.
threefallentrees
First Post
I'd only implement such a system if I were to restructure the way spell save DCs were calculated completely, taking out of account matters such as spell level.
Remember that it is easy to raise spell saves - use Heighten.
Remember that it is easy to raise spell saves - use Heighten.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
The problem is that intelligently constructed wizards all have very high DCs for their spells with saves as per the current rules.
The iconic wizard will have an effective int of at least 26 (15+5 stat increases+6 (item)) by level 20. That's a DC of 19 for a first level spell.
However, characters who use spells that actually have saves take spell focus and (if available) Greater Spell focus for the schools they use (Usually evocation, necromancy, illusion or enchantment but sometimes transmutation). That means that the 20th level wizard most likely casts first level spells at DC 21 or 23.
If that wizard really doesn't want the target to save, they can heighten the spell to 9th level for a DC of 30 or 32.
If the wizard is not limited to the iconic, it may very well be a grey elf wizard (starting int 20) with spellcasting prodigy and a +4 tome. Such a character's 1st level DCs would be 24 (28 with greater spell focus) and his 9th level greater spell focus DC is 36.
If that wizard were to take levels of elemental savant and the bloodline of fire feat, the DC could be pumped well above 40.
Really, I don't think that intelligently constructed wizards have any problems pumping their DCs.
The iconic wizard will have an effective int of at least 26 (15+5 stat increases+6 (item)) by level 20. That's a DC of 19 for a first level spell.
However, characters who use spells that actually have saves take spell focus and (if available) Greater Spell focus for the schools they use (Usually evocation, necromancy, illusion or enchantment but sometimes transmutation). That means that the 20th level wizard most likely casts first level spells at DC 21 or 23.
If that wizard really doesn't want the target to save, they can heighten the spell to 9th level for a DC of 30 or 32.
If the wizard is not limited to the iconic, it may very well be a grey elf wizard (starting int 20) with spellcasting prodigy and a +4 tome. Such a character's 1st level DCs would be 24 (28 with greater spell focus) and his 9th level greater spell focus DC is 36.
If that wizard were to take levels of elemental savant and the bloodline of fire feat, the DC could be pumped well above 40.
Really, I don't think that intelligently constructed wizards have any problems pumping their DCs.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
ThomasBJJ said:
My goodness no! no! no! No character would ever make a save again in their careers. The Iconic wizard's save DC for a 1st level spell would be 41 by the time she reached 20th level. If she's permitted greater spell focus as well, that's DC 43. Let me see who could make that DC on their most favorable save--
Clr 3/Pal3/Templar10/Hospitaller 4
Base Fort Save +17
Con bonus +4
Charisma bonus +6
Resistance bonus +5
Total bonus: +33
I don't think that any other kind of realistic character will come very close to this but on his best saving throw, a saving throw maximized character (4 classes, paladin with a 22 effective charisma, vest of resistance +5) would only make the DC of the iconic wizard's save on a 10+ roll.
Given a weaker saving throw (will), the paladin only has
Base will save +12 IIRC
Wisdom bonus +3
Charisma bonus +6
Resistance bonus +5
Total bonus +27
Now the save maximized paladin needs to roll a 16+ in order to save against even the simplest of enchantments.
The problem would be even worse at mid levels.
Iconic 8th level cleric's hold person spell: Wis 20 (+2 level, +2 enhancement), your proposed feat--base DC 25
With new feat and spell focus Enchantment: DC 27
With new feat and Greater spell focus Enchantment: DC 29
Without your feat but with spell focus enchantment: DC 19
Without your feat but with greater spell focus: DC 21
Without any DC enhancers: DC 17
Your typical 8th level foes:
8th level raging barbarian with the iron will feat: Will save +6
8th level fighter with the iron will feat: Will save +4
8th level wizard: Will save +6
8th level cleric: Will save +11
8th level monk: Will save +9 (+11 vs enchantment)
With your feat, the characters with the best will saves go from having to roll a 10 to save against the greater spell focus version to having to roll an 18--something like a 70% reduction in their success rate for the cost of one more feat.
Characters like the fighter and barbarian go from being able to save against the normal spell on a roll of an 11 to 13 to needing a natural 19 or 20 to save (and the 19 only works if the barbarian is raging). For one feat, that's about an 80% reduction in the save rate.
In contrast, even a powerful feat like greater spell focus (really two feats since you need spell focus as well) only takes the worst will save of the bunch (where it makes the most difference) down from being able to save on a 13 to being able to save on a 17--in the (almost) best case, a mere 50% reduction in the save rate for the cost of two feats.
On the other hand, your proposed feat seems to pretty reliably cut the save rate by 70% to 80% in the worst case scenarios. And if the cleric wants to make things worse, he can use a bead of karma to bump all his DCs up by 4.
Daelin_Farseer
First Post
saves
I have to wonder if the proposal had a typo...
Would it be more feasible if the proposed feat was something on the order of
DC 10 + (Caster level/2) + Ability modifier
Obviously caster level is at least 2* higher than the alternative..which doesn't stack well with anything like SF or GSF. This would even the saving throws across spell levels, but probably wouldn't elevate the maximum save DC too much.
I have to wonder if the proposal had a typo...
Would it be more feasible if the proposed feat was something on the order of
DC 10 + (Caster level/2) + Ability modifier
Obviously caster level is at least 2* higher than the alternative..which doesn't stack well with anything like SF or GSF. This would even the saving throws across spell levels, but probably wouldn't elevate the maximum save DC too much.
threefallentrees
First Post
That still breaks down rapidly at high levels, and even at mid levels it makes every spell have the DC of approximately the highest-level spell the character can cast. This makes even low-level spells as threatening, from a save standpoint, as hellballs and vengeful gazes of god.
This isn't friendly for anyone, most of all for save-weak characters like sorcerers who have important ability scores that don't modify their saves.
This gets mildly less bad if you have a caster level cap for spells, such that the highest level you can cast a spell at is equal to the level it hits its damage cap, or something to that effect, but not much less bad.
This isn't friendly for anyone, most of all for save-weak characters like sorcerers who have important ability scores that don't modify their saves.
This gets mildly less bad if you have a caster level cap for spells, such that the highest level you can cast a spell at is equal to the level it hits its damage cap, or something to that effect, but not much less bad.
Similar Threads
D&D 3E/3.5
Homebrew Content
