Spell DC modified by level

[Elder-Basilisk]

The problem with the DC 5+(clvl/2) suggestion is that it would make low level wizards and sorcerors even weaker than they already are (Which is saying something) and high level sor/wiz characters much more powerful. At the moment, high level wizards need to carefully weigh their spells, knowing that their less powerful spells are more likely to be resisted. If this is no longer true then their effective arsenal is doubled or tripled after 8th level or so when the level of the spell really starts making a big difference for saves. That means that wizards and especially sorcerors are much more powerful at those high levels. (And as their magic already makes them arguably the most powerful high level class that's really not a good idea for balance).

Of course, it's also worth noting that the suggested 10+clvl/2 or 5+clvl/2 would most likely only make a difference in the PCs' power. NPCs generally don't live long enough to get beyond their highest level spells anyway so it probably wouldn't make a difference for them.

One of the things that I like about third edition is that simple spells are inherently easier to resist. While you might catch a paladin with a 9th level (heightened) charm person, that's the most powerful spell of its type that a wizard can cast. You certainly shouldn't be able to control the iron willed champion of law with a spell one step above a mere cantrip.

 

[Havoc]

The problem is that it is assumed that you play with the rules as a whole. If you do not, than strange unbalances roar their ugly heads.
Saving vs spell is more difficult with a higher spell caster, because such a spell caster is supposed to wear many items that boost his speel casting stat.

This is a real annoying thing if you want to play in a different campaign type where magic objects are not so prevalent.

You can imho replace the spell level by the caster providing that a spell caster has only a stat of 23 or 24 at level 20; if you want to keep the balance with the normal worldview of D&D, you should not take a stat modifier into account, and use the straight level of the spell caster, for instance.
DC=10+SC level
or DC=10+1/2 SC level+spell level

Of course, giving less items to PCs leads also to other problems but hat is for another threat I guess.

 

[RogerBacon]

Re: saves

I have to wonder if the proposal had a typo...

Would it be more feasible if the proposed feat was something on the order of

DC 10 + (Caster level/2) + Ability modifier

We use the 10 + 1 / 2 caster level + stat bonus as standard in our game. That does not increase the difficulty of the caster’s highest level spells but it brings up the difficulty of his lower level spells to equal that of his highest level spells. The belief here is that you are not saving against the spell so much as you are saving against the force of the spell imparted by the spell caster. Under such a belief system it doesn’t matter what level of spell the caster is throwing at you, it’s just the level of the caster that matters. A 1st level spell thrown by a 20th level caster is harder to save against than a 3rd level spell thrown by a 5th level caster. Under the standard rules this would not be true (assuming equal stat bonuses). This set up also follows the guidelines for saving against creature abilities which is 10 + 1 / 2 creature’s HD + stat bonus. What’s fair for the creatures is fair for the players as well.

Roger Bacon

 

[RedShirtNo5]

Yet another formula

I'm using 10+spell level+1/4[caster level + 2*ability modifier].

 

[RogerBacon]

Re: Yet another formula

I'm using 10+spell level+1/4[caster level + 2*ability modifier].

you must be an engineer.

Roger Bacon

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Yet another formula

you must be an engineer.

Nah, if he was an engineer he would have used 10 + log(spell level) + sqrt(caster level/pi).

 

[Al]

One major problem with tinkering with spells so that the DCs become identical for all levels of spell has not been dealt with yet: metamagic.

Even ignoring the other problems (which I feel Elder-Basilisk deals with very well indeed) metamagic would be a constant problem. Part of the trade-off with metamagic is that the DCs are typically lower than of standard spells of equivalent level. With this house rule, they match them, throwing the spotlight very strongly onto metamagic.

For blast spells, the dichotomy is clear. Comparing an Empowered Fireball with a Cone of Cold, under this ruling Emp. Fireball is better up to and including 14th caster level. Maximised Cone of Cold will trump Horrid Wilting up to and including 19th caster level. Maximised Flame Strike overwhelms Fire Storm at all levels. With the standard rules, this is mitigated by the lower save. With this house rule, there is no such mitigating factor.

For non-blast spells, the possibilities are equally available. Chain Spell is a big help in this department, especially for lower-level spells that map almost directly onto higher-level ones. A Chained Charm Person will almost certainly be superior to a Charm Monster (on balance) with this modification. Twinned Spells can be devastating, making it very difficult indeed to save against such spells.

So unless a compromise is made, Metamagic is a major winner from this house rule: so much so as to shift the balance strongly in its favour and away from conventional spells.

 

[Technik4]

Suggestion

Something noone has mentioned yet is taking out the ability bonus. After all, does being more intelligent really strengthen a spell? I would argue that effective levels in the wizard class do that, hence an elderly school-teacher throwing more powerful spells than an apprentice. However, this would allow a feat to be made to add your ability bonus to the save's DC a few times a day, showing that "talent" said teacher looks for in students.

Of course, if the DCs are based on "caster level" then a lot of things which previously had simply extended durations or such become more powerful.

Unfortunately, I'm not a big formula maker, but if someone wants to figure out how much caster level should add I would appreciate it. Iconic is assumed +2 or +3 ability bonus all the way till 5th? Maybe + 1/2 caster's level, with no ability bonus could work for the stronger spells 'cuz your higher level, rather than stronger spells 'cuz my daddy bought me a better headband.

Technik

 

[Al]

The problem with removing the ability modifier adding to DCs is that it does relegate the mental ability scores still further. At the current, spellcasters boost their primary spellcasting score primarily (at least, IMO) to boost their DCs. Of course they want higher-level spells (but any fool can get 19 in their primary stat) and bonus spells are handy, but the main reason for boosting stats into the astronomic levels are those high DCs. In removing that, you do effect a paradigm shift in the nature of spellcasting.

 

[Emongnome]

My intent wasn't to make most every spell have a higher DC, but to somehow simply acknowledge a more powerful spell cast by a higher caster. Here is an idea:

DC=10+ caster level/6 + 1/2 spell level + ability modifier

The ability modifier stays the same and overall makes the DC's for spells lower. a 20th level caster casting a 9th level spell would normally be 10+9+ability but now would be 10+3+4+ability, two lower. Of course, the lower level spells would be slighty better, perhaps balancing it out. Just something to account for the spellcaster level without affecting the overall DC's too far. Granted, this makes lower level casters even harder to play, and I don't know the effect on epic level casters, so maybe it isn't the best idea. I certainly don't want a formula so complicated that it becomes a differential equation to solve. All the points are well spoken, and the prevaling thought is that to make this work without upsetting the balance would require a great deal of work.