Spellcaster Multiclassing Fix (Complicated)

[Sylrae]

Okay..

This is what I'll be trying in my game tonight. I don't plan on making the players do the math though. (lol)

Tell me what you guys think of it. I believe the math is right (or at least quite close).

The below is what I'm going to try using to make spellcasting more universal. I got the idea from Trailblazer, but didn't like the spellcaster beefing that accompanied their method by giving everyone ALL their spells.

So, using the standard spell list quantities, I came up with this.
It's rather math heavy, but it mathematically generates spellcaster tables, and gives you a single unified spellcaster progression. If you multiclass, the table is just adjusted.

This makes use of Trailblazer BMB type values, which all classes have, as well as BMP (Base Magic Power), and BME (Base Magic Energy).

BMP is used in a simple formula to determine what level spells you can cast, as well as things derived from the math.

BME determines the spell per day count for each spell all the way up to 20.


These get rather Math-y, and would not be doable by hand, on the fly. But since they're only going to really come up during levelup, and I can generate the non-multiclass ones once and then not worry about them, that doesn't bother me. In addition, I'm going to write a piece of software to automate the process so I don't have to do the math every time.

It should be noted that I based these on the actual spell gain tables I had, so they generate very similar results.

The only thing they don't yet do/yet cover, is things like how the duskblade gets extra lower level spells, going to a total of 10 in some of them, instead of the 6 for level 5 spells.

And Now for the crunchy math bits.

Here are the BMB, BMP, and BME I have for different caster classes, for reference.

BMB: Caster Classes Have BMB 1, at least in this version of the concept, so their caster level = their level if they dont multiclass into melee

BMP
Archivist BMP 1/2 Bard BMP 3/8 Battle-Priest BMP 1/4 Druid BMP 1/2 Duskblade BMP 1/4 Necromancer BMP 1/2 Priest BMP 1/2 Ranger BMP 1/4 Sorcerer BMP 1/2 Summoner BMP 1/2 War Mage BMP 1/2 Wizard BMP 1/2
BME
Archivist BME 5/6 Bard BME 5/6 Battle-Priest BME 1 Druid BME 2/3 Duskblade BME 1 Necromancer BME 5/6 Priest BME 2/3 Ranger BME 1 Sorcerer BME 1 Summoner BME 5/6 War Mage BME 5/6 Wizard BME 2/3


Spells Levels Available Bonus (A1)
-------------------------------------------------
A1 = (-BMPValueFor1stClass)+(BMPValue*level)


Spell Level Available (A0)
-------------------------------------------------
A0 = 1 + (A1)
Ex: Battle Priest Level 5 = 4/4 + 1 = 2 *This one works great


Average A1 (A2)
-------------------------------------------------
A2 = BMPValuea*classlevel+...+BMPValuen*classlevel/(Level)
Ex: Battle-Priest Level 5 = 1/4
Ex: Battle Priest Level 2 Wizard level 4 = (1/4*2 + 1/2*4)/6 = .4166

Level When a Spell Level Becomes Available (Lx)
-------------------------------------------------
Lx = (x-1)(1/BMPVal)+1

Number of Levels with a Given Spell Level(Nx)
-------------------------------------------------
20-(Lx-1)

Progressing Levels (Px)
-------------------------------------------------
3/4 Nx

Number of Levels of Each spells Per Day (Cx)
-------------------------------------------------
(B0-1)/Px

Number of Maxed Levels (Mx)
-------------------------------------------------
1/4 Nx (Round Up)

Max Number of Spells @ Each Spell Level by 20 (B0)
-------------------------------------------------
(BME/Level) * 6


Quantity of Spells of Level x (Qx)
-------------------------------------------------
Qx = (Level - Lx >= 0 then)
Let Lv = Level - Lx;
If (Lv > Px)
Qx = b0;
Else
Qx = Lv/Cx;


Bonus Spells
-------------------------------------------------
As Per usual, but bonus spells overlap. So a Sorcerer/wizard with 2
bonus spells from cha and 4 from int, can choose 4 from the wizard
list, or 2 from the sorc list and 2 from wizard.
A Priest's Bonus slots are added to their high-wisdom slots for the purposes of this balancing.

These formulae should cover all the core casters. It will not perfectly emulate the Battlepriest, Duskblade, and Ranger, However, as they have extra low-

level spells.

Max Spell Level from Multiclassing
-------------------------------------------------
You can always cast up to the highest level spells from your highest level caster class. If there is a tie, you have to declare one the 'highest'. Until

another one surpasses the 'highest' in level, it remains so.
You can cast up to 2x your class level in secondary caster classes. Add to that tripled nuber, any BMB from non-caster classes. If this exceeds your

character level, then you can cast at your character level instead.

In Terms of Character Levels
08 > 06 > 02
16 > 12 > 04

10 > 03 > 01
14 > 06 > 02

05 = 05 > 04
14 > 10 > 08

03 = 03 = 03
09 > 06 = 06

In Terms of Spell Levels & BMPs
06 = 06 = 06 (Bard, Priest, Ranger)
1 + 18/8 + 2.5 + 3/2 = 7.25 BMP
7th > 6th > 3rd spell Levels

Spells per Day via multiclassing
--------------------------------
Calculate Via Qx for each Level x

 

[Celebrim]

This would be much easier to evaluate and understand with an example.

So maybe you could take something like a Wizard 6/Cleric 4 and walk me through your calculations to produce their final spells/day list?

Also, unless I'm mistaken, this does nothing to address the problem of multiclassing between a spellcaster class and a non-spellcaster class, correct?

 

[chando]

This does seems a lot complicated. Would not be simples to make the spellcaster levels work in a similar way to the initiator levels in the tome of battle. You spellcaster level is equal to the levels in your class +1/2 your levels in other classes (barring PrC that grant spellcasting advancment, of course). Then a Wiz 2/Crg 2 would cast spells as a 3rd level spellcaster in both classes, and a Sor 2/ Pal 10 would cast spells cas a 8th level sorcerer. not great for a 12th level caster character, but good enough to be a gish-lite.

The only thing bothering me in this would be how to treat Prc tha already give 1/2 casting, as the consensus are they are almost never worth it, except for one or trhee levels. They could become a 4/5 or 8/10 spellcasting classes i guess

 

[Sylrae]

That's actually the fix I used to use. It results in the characters still casting alot more low level spells, and having alot more low level spells per day.

In this (quite complicated) system (again, gonna write an app to calculate it on the fly so I dont have to do the math - I bring my laptop to run games anyways), The proposed character casts spells of the appropriate level. So a wizard 10 cleric 10 is still casting spells with caster level 20, with 4 max level 9 spells per day, and with 9 spell levels. A Wizard 10 bard 10 would cast as a 20th level caster, but would have slightly more spells per day, and would have roughly a 7.5 or 8th level max spell.Only thing I haven't figured out is how to compensate for the expanded spell list that gives them. but once I have this part tested out a bit, THEN I'll figure out spell lists size compensation.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

In general, my approach to things is that if you need to use an application to figure out a fundamental and basic aspect of a character, it's wrong. It might be innovative as hell, but not everyone uses a computer at the game, not everyone _wants_ to use a computer at the game, and the game is already got enough complex and moving parts that requiring the use of something like a computer for the game just means you're wasting your time.

Plus, especially in this day where 3.5 is either a Dead system as far as people are concerned or everything needs to be converted over to Pathfinder, tossing up things like this that make conversion even more complicated means it's more likely to be ignored as well.

Just my personal opinion as a rule-hacker.

 

[Sylrae]

In general, my approach to things is that if you need to use an application to figure out a fundamental and basic aspect of a character, it's wrong. It might be innovative as hell, but not everyone uses a computer at the game, not everyone _wants_ to use a computer at the game, and the game is already got enough complex and moving parts that requiring the use of something like a computer for the game just means you're wasting your time.

That's a fair assessment, but it wouldn't be a big stretch to use that computer program to generate a bunch of tables, and then have the player use the table that is numerically closer to their BMB, BMP, BME.

Plus, especially in this day where 3.5 is either a Dead system as far as people are concerned or everything needs to be converted over to Pathfinder, tossing up things like this that make conversion even more complicated means it's more likely to be ignored as well.

I'm using Pathfinder as a base for all my numbers, not old 3.5. I'm firmly in the pathfinder group. But that doesn't mean that there are not still issues that Pathfinder failed to address. Such as the suck of multiclass spellcasters. even if it only sees use in my own games, as long as it gives the balanced numerical result of not screwing over the casters when they multiclass, then I'll be satisfied. As mentioned, I need to find a way to make sure that they don't just have a huge spell list to use with no penalties, but the power should still be comparable. I'll come up with something when I get the chance.

Just my personal opinion as a rule-hacker.

Valid opinion, and you're right about the application. With 10ish tables though for different score values, the computer shouldnt be needed. In which case I can print out the pretty table and tell the players to use the appropriate one.