Spellcasting monsters ?

[gpetruc]

I have a problem about having monsters with spellcaster class levels:

- a kobold, with 8 sorcerer levels, is a CR 8
- a bugbear with 8 sorcerer levels is a CR 10 (maybe, but maybe only 9)
- I don't think a Succubus with 8 sorcerer levels is comparable to a CR 17 !
If a creature is already powerful, it wouldn't benefit much from the beginning levels of a spellcaster class (when you teleport without error, who cares of expeditous retreat ? ...).
While with other, non spellcasting classes, the math CR + level = new CR can work ok, with spellcasting classes it does not seem ok.

Anybody has some ideas or knows something about how to fix this problems ?

I was thinking at something like a monster PrC that gives access to spell levels more quickly than the core classes, starting at the "power level" of that race ... but this is only a vague idea ... something like the Beholder Mage (PrC from Monsters of Faerun), but more versatile

 

[kengar]

I don't think there's a good way to make a hard & fast rule for this, but if you look at a creature like a Succubus, try to see how much of their existing CR is due to magical or spell-like abilities and try to ball-park a caster level for them (based on things like most powerful spell-like ability). Subtract that from any caster class levels they have and that might give you a better "working CR."

Does this make sense to anyone else?

 

[DreamChaser]

I have a problem about having monsters with spellcaster class levels:


- I don't think a Succubus with 8 sorcerer levels is comparable to a CR 17 !
If a creature is already powerful, it wouldn't benefit much from the beginning levels of a spellcaster class (when you teleport without error, who cares of expeditous retreat ? ...).
While with other, non spellcasting classes, the math CR + level = new CR can work ok, with spellcasting classes it does not seem ok.

I think this logic has a flaw: it could apply to high level characters too. I'm a 14th level sorcerer. Who cares about my first levels of sorcerer when I can cast these high level spells?

A succubus already has some good abilities. With sorcerer levels, she gains versatility that she did not have. You're right about expaditious retreat when you have Tw/oE so it would be silly for her to learn it. Instead, some buff spells (aways useful), Resist Elements (for those that she doesn't already resist), Summon Monster (to suppliment her automatic summoning), Magic Missile (of course), Mage Armor (stacks with her natural armor), True Strike, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc. Sure her spells won't necessarily make her more able to directly affect equivalent level characters but that does not mean she isn't more of a challenge. Especially since she would tend to take spells that didn't rely on overcoming her enemy's SR or saves (since most of the creatures she would be dealing with have both in spades). She would use more of the buffing spells, the knowledge spells, the no save spells, etc.

Of course the low levels spells become less useful as the character or creature advances. It is that nature of the power curve.

This is how I see it.

DC

 

[gpetruc]

I think this logic has a flaw: it could apply to high level characters too. I'm a 14th level sorcerer. Who cares about my first levels of sorcerer when I can cast these high level spells?

But if you havd to choose between a Wiz12 or a Sor9/Wiz3 you wouldchosen the Wiz12, I think.
That's why spellcasters usually don't multiclass (except for PrC that give some spellcasting level increases)

Actually the true creature I was going to give sorcerer levels is an Effreeti, the succubus was just an example).
I still think even giving him 7 levels of sorcerer it's too week to be a real CR 15
(Lvl 15 wizards/clerics have access to 8th level spells!) (or compare it with a CR 16 Pit Fiend)

 

[ruleslawyer]

gpetruc: You're absolutely right about monsters with SLAs and spellcasting. It's precisely the same problem as multiclassed spellcasters; a Clr6/Wiz6 is really about as powerful than a Clr 6 and a Wiz 6 (CR 8), not a Clr12 or Wiz12 (CR 12). In fact, I usually track CR this way for strongly magical monsters with spellcaster levels; thus, the efreeti in your example would be about CR 10 in my estimation.

My advice would be to give the efreet a LOT of sorc levels, or make up a special "genie spellcaster" PrC with different abilities. For example, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to make your efreeti a 12th-level sorcerer as a CR 15 encounter. Also ensure that it focuses most of its spell power on buffing itself; an efreet with true strike, haste, and shield going would be a potent opponent!