italianranma
First Post
Here's the basics of my question; How visable is spellcasting?
My DM and I are having a fight about it, which normally wouldn't mean anything because of rule #1 (the DM is always right). However we switch off adventures effectively co-DMing. Our players expect us to keep the rules fairly similar, so we do everything by the book.
Now I have a Rogue/Sorcerer who likes to cast spells without the world knowing. I contain that if people aren't withen 10-20 yrds or not paying specific attention to me, then they don't notice the spell casting. There's historic grounds for this; In 2nd Edition there was a player's option book called Spells and Magic, and on page 117 it specifically says “who notices when spells are being cast? Generally, anyone who is directly observing the caster notices the strange gestures or air of concentration that characterize a spell. Depending on the lighting conditions and the amount of distractions nearby, and observer might be able to notice the spellcaster’s actions from as far as 30 to 50 feet away.” The subtlelty rating of a 1st level spell is 25% at that distance. However if there is distracting activity and poor lighting (like I’d say there was) the chance drops to 5%.
Granted that was 2nd edition, and now there are spot and listen checks. Even so, and 10yrds -3penelty, and if they're actively engaged in something else (distracted -4 penelty) They're going to be -7 on a DC of 0. Perfectly doable. But if were in a crowded bar, the DC could go up to 10 or 15 imho. Not so doable.
This whole issue started when we were waylaid by orcs who halted us 60yrds away. I (being a rear guard) was 120yrds away (360ft) and while the Chieftain was trying to intimidate the front guard I cast mage armor on myself. The DM ruled that the Orc Chieftain immidiatly saw what I did and recognized it as spellcasting and we all threw down.
I called him on it after the game and he said that although he saw my point, magic in faerun is so common place that everyone would know what I was doing, and since there were 12 orcs, one was bound to have his eyes trained on me.
I'm not so worried about that, but I'm more worried about future calls he and I might make. For example, how less useful is the charm person spell, if when using it out of combat, everyone immidiatly recognizes that I've cast a spell? Let's say I'm trying to get my friend out of jail, so I charm the bailef and ask him to release my friend. However the bailef's deputy is there and as long as he's not blinded and deafend knows what's going on and the jig is up. In spells and magic they specifically reference that kind of occurance and say that's why there's a subtlely rating.
Anyway I was wondering what, if any, pervious rulings there were on this, and what you think.
My DM and I are having a fight about it, which normally wouldn't mean anything because of rule #1 (the DM is always right). However we switch off adventures effectively co-DMing. Our players expect us to keep the rules fairly similar, so we do everything by the book.
Now I have a Rogue/Sorcerer who likes to cast spells without the world knowing. I contain that if people aren't withen 10-20 yrds or not paying specific attention to me, then they don't notice the spell casting. There's historic grounds for this; In 2nd Edition there was a player's option book called Spells and Magic, and on page 117 it specifically says “who notices when spells are being cast? Generally, anyone who is directly observing the caster notices the strange gestures or air of concentration that characterize a spell. Depending on the lighting conditions and the amount of distractions nearby, and observer might be able to notice the spellcaster’s actions from as far as 30 to 50 feet away.” The subtlelty rating of a 1st level spell is 25% at that distance. However if there is distracting activity and poor lighting (like I’d say there was) the chance drops to 5%.
Granted that was 2nd edition, and now there are spot and listen checks. Even so, and 10yrds -3penelty, and if they're actively engaged in something else (distracted -4 penelty) They're going to be -7 on a DC of 0. Perfectly doable. But if were in a crowded bar, the DC could go up to 10 or 15 imho. Not so doable.
This whole issue started when we were waylaid by orcs who halted us 60yrds away. I (being a rear guard) was 120yrds away (360ft) and while the Chieftain was trying to intimidate the front guard I cast mage armor on myself. The DM ruled that the Orc Chieftain immidiatly saw what I did and recognized it as spellcasting and we all threw down.
I called him on it after the game and he said that although he saw my point, magic in faerun is so common place that everyone would know what I was doing, and since there were 12 orcs, one was bound to have his eyes trained on me.
I'm not so worried about that, but I'm more worried about future calls he and I might make. For example, how less useful is the charm person spell, if when using it out of combat, everyone immidiatly recognizes that I've cast a spell? Let's say I'm trying to get my friend out of jail, so I charm the bailef and ask him to release my friend. However the bailef's deputy is there and as long as he's not blinded and deafend knows what's going on and the jig is up. In spells and magic they specifically reference that kind of occurance and say that's why there's a subtlely rating.
Anyway I was wondering what, if any, pervious rulings there were on this, and what you think.