Spellcasting

[italianranma]

Here's the basics of my question; How visable is spellcasting?

My DM and I are having a fight about it, which normally wouldn't mean anything because of rule #1 (the DM is always right). However we switch off adventures effectively co-DMing. Our players expect us to keep the rules fairly similar, so we do everything by the book.

Now I have a Rogue/Sorcerer who likes to cast spells without the world knowing. I contain that if people aren't withen 10-20 yrds or not paying specific attention to me, then they don't notice the spell casting. There's historic grounds for this; In 2nd Edition there was a player's option book called Spells and Magic, and on page 117 it specifically says “who notices when spells are being cast? Generally, anyone who is directly observing the caster notices the strange gestures or air of concentration that characterize a spell. Depending on the lighting conditions and the amount of distractions nearby, and observer might be able to notice the spellcaster’s actions from as far as 30 to 50 feet away.” The subtlelty rating of a 1st level spell is 25% at that distance. However if there is distracting activity and poor lighting (like I’d say there was) the chance drops to 5%.

Granted that was 2nd edition, and now there are spot and listen checks. Even so, and 10yrds -3penelty, and if they're actively engaged in something else (distracted -4 penelty) They're going to be -7 on a DC of 0. Perfectly doable. But if were in a crowded bar, the DC could go up to 10 or 15 imho. Not so doable.

This whole issue started when we were waylaid by orcs who halted us 60yrds away. I (being a rear guard) was 120yrds away (360ft) and while the Chieftain was trying to intimidate the front guard I cast mage armor on myself. The DM ruled that the Orc Chieftain immidiatly saw what I did and recognized it as spellcasting and we all threw down.

I called him on it after the game and he said that although he saw my point, magic in faerun is so common place that everyone would know what I was doing, and since there were 12 orcs, one was bound to have his eyes trained on me.

I'm not so worried about that, but I'm more worried about future calls he and I might make. For example, how less useful is the charm person spell, if when using it out of combat, everyone immidiatly recognizes that I've cast a spell? Let's say I'm trying to get my friend out of jail, so I charm the bailef and ask him to release my friend. However the bailef's deputy is there and as long as he's not blinded and deafend knows what's going on and the jig is up. In spells and magic they specifically reference that kind of occurance and say that's why there's a subtlely rating.

Anyway I was wondering what, if any, pervious rulings there were on this, and what you think.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.

-----

So, no mumbling your incantations under your breath.

Take a look at the scene in Fellowship of the Ring where Gandalf and Saruman are back-and-forth counterspelling between Isengard and Caradhras.

Strong voice.

-Hyp.

 

[shilsen]

Were you casting a silenced spell? If not, anyone nearby would be able to pick up the fact that you were casting, since you need to "speak in a strong voice" (PHB pg. 174).

Edit: Damn you, Hyp. But I have the PHB reference, so I win! So there!

 

[italianranma]

Oh yeah, I know that rule. Let me expand a bit on the question. First off the DC of people talking is 0, so if we make a distintion between talking and Strong voice, I'd say it's in between talking and the noise of a battle, so DC -5. Still at 360ft away (-36 penelty to spot and listen checks) should the orcs still have heard me?

Also, do people inherently know that I'm spellcasting? I could just be cursing in draconic. I'm sure that sounds strange enough.

 

[ciaran00]

Dark Sun has Bluff rules for hiding somatic components. I personally use Sleight of Hand opposing a Spot roll. Verbals Components are hard to miss, sorry. There is NO mistaking what the spellcaster is doing. Aren't there feats to go around this?

ciaran

 

[JoeBlank]

My gnome sorcerer uses this feat when he wants to be sneaky:

Subtle Spell [Metamagic]
Source: Netbook of Feats
You know how to disguise the use of material, verbal, and somatic components; thus making your spell casting difficult to recognize.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft
Benefit: When you cast a subtle spell those who could observe you must make a Spot check opposed by your Spellcraft check to identify that you are casting a spell. A subtle spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Normal: Without this feat spell casting is automatically recognized as spell casting.
Notes: Casting a subtle spell still draws an attack of opportunity. If the person taking the attack of opportunity fails the opposed Spot check they still get the attack of opportunity but do not know why you let your guard down.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

If you don't want people to know what you're doing, your friends are:
Still Spell
Silent Spell
Eschew Materials
Quicken Spell

A stilled, silent, eschewed spell would potentially still be noticable (as you have to concentrate so it's as noticable as a spell like ability) if someone were paying close attention to you and knew a bit about magic. However, the bailiff or the bar patrons probably wouldn't notice.

The silent spell could probably be cast unnoticed if you or someone else made a bluff check to distract the observers. (Assuming it has somatic components).

The Stilled spell might well be castable unnoticed if you were in a very noisy place (next to a blacksmiths shop with several apprentices working or inside the city slaughterhouse or in the midst of a loud crowd).

The quickened spell would be very difficult--if not impossible to notice. However, it comes at a very steep cost in terms of the slot needed to use it.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Think about it this way. If one of the orcs was casting a spell, would you argue that you shouldn't notice it until it went off? With twelve orcs, surely you can't be observing them all directly.

 

[Stalker0]

I do agree with the idea that if you are far away, as the 360 feet you mentioned, there should be a spot check. I mean, that's more than a football field away, I'd say you've definately got a shot at it. But of course, in closer quarters it is much harder to cast it quietly. Also, even though taking away the verbal or the somatic doesn't completely disquise the spell, T&B has a rule that for every component you take away the spellcraft DC goes up by 5, so at least its harder to identify.

 

[italianranma]

Thanks everyone for your input. The DM and I had a good long talk about it and he agreed that the call was a little off. He's seen the light about me casting in a bar and such, so thanks for your support.