Spellcraft rules question?

[EarthsShadow]

Hello to you all, I have a question to ask.

What is the proper procedure in using spellcraft? I have been in three different games in the last two years, and each DM uses it differently, but here is how it was used in a RPGA game.

Basically, our spellcasters got a spellcraft check whenever a npc did cast a spell. This confused me, but I want to get this skill more use for those that put ranks into it.

I think the skill description is a little vague on this, and any examples of how it gets used in game would be most appreciated, and I thank you ahead of time for any advice any of you provide.

 

[dcollins]

Here's something I had to note on the "Spellcraft" description page: PHB p. 152, under "Counterspells", asserts that identifying a cast spell is a free action.

I've made the assumption that's true all the time, and not just for counterspelling (I could be wrong). However, I've enforced the usual action sequence for this (to keep the game moving). That is, when an opponent casts a spell -- every spellcaster, on their next action, gets a free-action spellcraft check to determine what was cast.

That's my best reading of the rules that are there.

 

[Croaker]

I generally only allow Spellcraft checks if a PC has declared a readied action of some sort against the spellcaster in question. Otherwise, things just get cumbersome if several characters want to know what every spell being cast is. Additionally, it kind of ruins the usefulness of many spells, particularly those of the Illusion school (hmm, he's casting Shadow Evocation, better disbelieve...) and such insidious charms as Dominate or Charm Monster.

I also impose distance penalties similar to those for the Spot skill (-1 per 10') since I think it a bit ridiculous that noticing a goblin behind a rock is harder at 50' but it is apparently possible to notice whether a wizard wiggled his pinky twice or thrice regardless of distance, or if he pulled a piece of wool or piece of hair from his component pouch.

 

[Li Shenron]

Here's something I had to note on the "Spellcraft" description page: PHB p. 152, under "Counterspells", asserts that identifying a cast spell is a free action.

I've made the assumption that's true all the time, and not just for counterspelling (I could be wrong). However, I've enforced the usual action sequence for this (to keep the game moving). That is, when an opponent casts a spell -- every spellcaster, on their next action, gets a free-action spellcraft check to determine what was cast.

That's my best reading of the rules that are there.

I think yours is the correct way, although I'd let them have the check when the spell is cast. Just remember that Spellcraft is a trained only skill, so in case there are spellcasters with no ranks, they wouldn't get a check.

 

[Chacal]

I use it as a free action, too.
[EDIT] I failed my will save again : the following are house rules, and this is D&D rules forum.
Bad chacal, bad ...
[/EDIT]


I'm fond of giving malus when
-the spell is not on the spell known
- not on the spell list
- cast differently (divine vs arcane, spontaneous vs prepared, even bard vs sorcerer)
- cast by a specialist and seen by a non-specialist
- cast with some alteration due to special prestige class casting

but on the other hand, I usually give partial information upon failure of the check , like :
- school, element, approx. level,
to let them guess how they could counterspell

Chacal

 

[Kae'Yoss]

We use it as a reaction on the spell cast. Stuff like not being able to see or hear the caster will ruin the attempt, or if he uses still spell or silent spell. On your next action, the spell will be done casting, and it's to late anyway (since the spell has gone off, and you need no genius to identify a fireball by then). It would also make reactive counterspell totally useless (you COULD counterspell without readying an action, but you can't, since you don't know the spell...).

Illusion spells won't be fooled by a spellcraft check - you could still be wrong with your spellcraft result, and noone takes the word of a spellcaster who calls "It's an illusion" when faced with an incoming fireballo or a raging monster.....

On a sidenote: Spellcraft checks against sorcerers are more difficult IMC, since they don't use the traditional gestures and arcane phrases, and specialists suffer a penalty with their banned school, anyway. The rest is assumed to be taught when learning the spellcraft skill.

 

[Bastoche]

The rule is not clear on this. IMO, the way it's written in the counterspelling section is a particular case, not the general rule. In the particular case where you ready an action to counter spell you get a spell craft check as a free action. My understanding of it is if and only if you ready an action to counterspell then you can make a spellcraft check as a free action.

Each and every other skill uses in a combat round is considered a standard action and IMO spellcraft should also follow that rule.

If a spell is cast before your turn, you can make a spellcraft check at your turn as a standard action. If the spell is cast later, you'll have to ready an action "when a spell is cast, I spellcraft it" and while at it, you could try to counterspell instead...

But my point is that using a skill is a standard actionm spellcraft is a skill therefore it should be a standard action. In a particular case (counterspelling) it is a free action though.

 

[Steverooo]

Skill Use

Listen and Spot are skills, too, yet they can be used to notice or overhear as free actions.

If you don't mind mutiple rolls, conversation (and, presumably, spellcasting) has a DC:0 to be overheard (no word on whispering), -1/10' distant. If the words can be heard, allow a Spellcraft check as a free action to determine what the spell is, REGARDLESS of whether or not the spellslinger's actions and/or material components/foci can be seen...

See the section on magic... All spells are really only "triggers", spoken in draconic, and the words are always the same for the same spell. It doesn't matter if you're a Trog or a Troll. So, if you hear an NPC say (in Draconic) "Oh enemies mine, with spell entwine, bound by my power, for 'bout half an hour!", you know he's casting Web (or whatever).

If you can't overhear him, but can see him, then roll for Read Lips, if you have it!

If he's using the Silent Spell Feat, then you need a Spot roll, -1/10' to see motions, components, and/or foci.

If he's invisible and using Silent Spell, you're outta luck. Same for inaudible spells in darkness, behind barriers, etc.

I'm not sure that I agree that there should be some kind of penalty for Arcane/Divine spells. No word on whether or not the words differ... GM's call.

All IMHO, of course... YMMV.

9Edit PS: If the spell isn't one that's in the PHB, especially if it's one that's newly invented by the caster, I would definitely give a penalty, if I allowed any info to be gained, at all! If Johimbo the Druid casts his newly researched Cheetah's Speed spell (assuming it's level 2), I'd require DC:17 to determine that it's new and unknown, DC:27 to get some info, and DC:37 to know what it does...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I agree. There are skills that are reactions. And spellcraft's among them, IMO. You aren't pulling out your organizer and compare his gestures to the sketches you drew, or count the words, you just hear it and then you either recognize it or you don't.

 

[Chacal]

Re: Skill Use

Originally posted by Steverooo
<Snipped usefull and founded advice >

I'm not sure that I agree that there should be some kind of penalty for Arcane/Divine spells. No word on whether or not the words differ... GM's call.

Sorry, I house-ruled again. I'll edit my post.

9Edit PS: If the spell isn't one that's in the PHB, especially if it's one that's newly invented by the caster, I would definitely give a penalty, if I allowed any info to be gained, at all! If Johimbo the Druid casts his newly researched Cheetah's Speed spell (assuming it's level 2), I'd require DC:17 to determine that it's new and unknown, DC:27 to get some info, and DC:37 to know what it does...

Oh, so you are ... I feel better now



Chacal