Spellpower

[Janos Audron]

I'm quite unhappy what they did to spellpower in 3.5. The 3.0 version was good for most classes:

Evoker: Better Damage
Necromancer: Better Save or Die
Illusionist: Better Save or Die
Transmuter: Better Polymorph Other
Enchanter: Better Dominate
Diviner: Quite useless
Conjurer: Better Trap the Soul (or not that useful)
Abjurer: Not that useful

The 3.5 version is good for few classes:

Evoker: Short term benifit (fireball caps @ 10, rest caps @ 15 or 20)
Necromancer: Quite useless
Illusionist: Spells last longer (not that useful)
Transmuter: Spells last longer (not that useful)
Enchanter: Spells last longer (not that useful)
Diviner: More questions? (not that useful)
Conjurer: Monsters stay longer, harder to dispel
Abjurer: Protection lasts longer, harder to dispel

So, instead of 5/8 classes that benifit from spellpower, there are just 3 left. That is, IMO, a bad change.

What's worse is that, from 13th level, a second level spell, cast three times, is, at least, equal to Spellpower +3. So, if you have become a Red Wizard a normal wizard can just cast three spells to not just get your 5th level ability, but he gets it better (universal, instead of one school). Same goes for Archmage (except that Archmage gets universal too). Of course, these things can get dispelled, but since there are very cheap dispel counters, let's leave that out of the comparison.

I agree that 3.0 Spellpower was kinda overpowered. +11 to DC's for Save or Die spells is a lot and I understand that it was too powerful. However, 3.5 Spellpower is kinda useless for Evokers, because all spells (save for one) cap at 20 dice. You gain a benifit that, in 5 to 10 levels isn't a benefit anymore. Necromancers, Diviners, Transmuters, Enchanters and Illusionists are better of casting 3 Create Magic Tattoo's and take a Spell Penetration feat (instead of either Tattoo Focus or Skill Focus (Spellcraft)) than to waste levels or feats. The benefit is not exactely the same, true, but I think it is close enough (+3 caster level / +2 to beat SR vs. +5 caster level).

So, what would make Spellpower a good ability again (or is it a good ability and am I just blinded by my dislike of 3.5 that I don't see it)? We've toyed with the idea to make Spellpower not stackable and then raise the damage cap by the amount of spellpower. This would be good for Evokers and it is somewhere between 3.0 and 3.5. However, that still doesn't make it a good ability for Necromancers, Enchanters, Diviners etc.

Notes:
Create Magic Tattoo is from FRCS.

Counter to Dispel Magic: Spellblade from MoF. Can be put either on Bladed Boots or Claw Bracers, so 16k = complete immunity to (targetted) (Greater) Dispel Magic.

 

[Technik4]

While the new spell-power isnt quite as useful as before, I think you are overlooking some benefits. Even with a small amount of spell power you can get a 5-15% increase in spell durations at the highest levels (20ish) which is 10-30% increase at lower levels (10sih). Additionally spellpower still helps with penetrating SR, a perrenial problem for all spellcasters. Consider that instead of taking Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration as a single class spellcaster *must* do to get an edge on SR, the archmage/red wizard can use those feats for something else, if they want, they can easily get the old Spell Power's bonus of +1 DCs.

I also think there are a few more spells with higher than 20 dice for spellcaps. Disintegrate, Meteor Swarm, and Polar Ray all come to mind, but I would have to scour the phb to find more.

Technik

 

[Janos Audron]

Technik:

The problem is two fold:

First I think the ability has become less useful. Disintegrate caps @ 20th level, dealing 40d6, but you are correct with the Polar Ray (which was the only spell I could find). So the Evoker has one spell to fully use the benefit of Spellpower...

Second, a second level spell, cast three times, can give (universal) Spellpower +3. What would you think of a second level spell that, after three castings, gave the Enchant Arrows +3 ability, Shadow Jump 40 ft. or even (universal) Elemental Focus +2?

Because a second level spell can mimic what a high level PrC ability does, it takes away the feeling of actually getting something...

 

[Technik4]

Effects where greater caster level is good:

-Before level 20-

Chain Lightning: to a max of 20d6

Circle of Death: to a max of 20d4

Disintegrate: Each caster level you have is 2d6, so even Spell Power +2 can equal 4d6 more damage, sometimes.

Scrying: Chance of spell operating through the sensor is 5% per caster level

vs Dispel: The dispel check is against 11 + Spell's Caster Level.

Break Enchantment: to a max of +15

Greater Magic Weapon: get plusses faster

-After level 20-

Animate Objects: Get more/bigger objects

Banishment: 2 HD per caster level

Binding: Target gets a saving throw only if its HD equal at least 1/2 your caster level.

Bigby's Clenched Fist and Crushing and Grasping Hands: Its attack bonus is based on caster level, no cap.

Blasphemy (Cleric): Effects are based on target's difference from caster level, the greater the difference, the greater the effect.

Polar Ray: Max is 25d6

Shapechange: Max HD is based on caster level, capped at 50 HD. More spellpower = bigger monsters.



The above is a quick list, I started going through spells in the phb and there are quite a few. All the Create Undead spells for instance, its useful to have a higher caster level. For other specific things its nice having a higher level caster effect (for people trying to break your spells, like permanencied spells). The list goes on. It is not as much of an advantage as it used to be, but with some thought, it has some powerful applications (as well as an automatic bonus against SR).

Technik

 

[Janos Audron]

By TechnickEffects where greater caster level is good:

-Before level 20-

vs Dispel: The dispel check is against 11 + Spell's Caster Level.

Greater Magic Weapon: get plusses faster

-After level 20-

Banishment: 2 HD per caster level

Binding: Target gets a saving throw only if its HD equal at least 1/2 your caster level.

Bigby's Clenched Fist and Crushing and Grasping Hands: Its attack bonus is based on caster level, no cap.

Polar Ray: Max is 25d6

Shapechange: Max HD is based on caster level, capped at 50 HD. More spellpower = bigger monsters.

Many of the things you listed under -Below level 20 benifits- are not 'below level 20', they are 'below level 16' since reaching level 16 makes one Spellpower obsolete. And the benefit reduces with each level you gain.

I cannot argue with the benefits after 20th level and these benefits are there from 17th level. However, these four spells are not enough to make the ability worth it, especially when considering that these spells are from four different schools, so a Red Wizard has one benefit (well, there are probably more spells, but I doubt each school has more than three or four of those spells)...

Spellpower has (mostly) become a short term benefit, and IMO, a short term benifit should not be a PrC ability.

So, technick, since you are taking the side 'Spellpower is useful', do you think Spellpower is still a useful ability? Even when there is Create Magic Tattoo out there?

 

[Technik4]

A couple counter-arguments:

I dont believe your spellblade dispel magic immunity works. The description of spellblade states "The chosen spell must be one that is targetted against the wielder (not a spell that affects an area)." Emphasis is mine, but clearly since Dispel and Greater Dispel can affect an area, they cannot be used in this manner. If I could memorize a specific dispel magic that targetted someone your plan would have more credence, but I choose which type of Dispel Magic I want upon casting, hence it does not fulfill the requirement for Spellblade.

So Spellpower is still very good as a bonus to dispel others' spells, and make your own harder.

Spellpower is still good as a 'lite' Spell Penetration.

Spellpower is very very good at lower levels, and still useful at higher levels (though only for a smaller range of spells).

Exampls which do not include the gooies from above:
At 9th level a Red Wizard has Spell Power +2. This means she casts 5th level spells like Cone of Cold for an additional +2d6 points of damage. At this point, Create Magic Tattoo is not an option, as it requires at least being a Wizard of 13th level or higher (no caster level tricks).

By 11th level a Red Wizard can have Spell Power +3. This means he casts 6th level spells (mostly cap out at 15) at almost maximum power as soon as they get access to them. Create Magic Tattoo is still not an option.

13th level sees a Red Wizard with Spell Power +4. 7th level spells are cast at full power (usually) and Disintegrate is +8d6 (for transmuters). Create Magic Tattoo is finally an option, however they are dispellable, only last 1 day, and require at least a reasonable amount of skill points to ensure not failing every check (remember, skill bonus items got more expensive in 3.5). Additionally (and finally) whats good for the gander is good for the Red Wizard. While it will aid a regular 13th level wizard to create 3 magical caster level +1 tattoos, the 13th level Red Wizard can do the same, bringing his caster level to 20!

Personally I think Spell Power holds up fine. I think Create Magic Tattoo needs a tiny bit of erratta, perhaps 10 exp for the weak tattoo 30 for the medium one, and 50 for the excellent ones. This would be to dissuade making this an auto-buffer everyday (+2 competence to attacks is pretty fly, and thats only a DC 15).

Of course where does our Red Wizard stand at level 20 (with Spell Power +5)? Well, the regular wizard (or even a wizard with a prc) seems behind, here are some benefits to the various schools:

Abjuration: More Difficult to Dispel Defenses. Better Banishments/Dismissals. Hardier Permanencies.

Conjuartion: More Bang for your Gate (5 more HD). Regular wizards Gate in Balors, I gate in 25 HD Balors (vs 20) or 5th level Barbarian Balors. Summons last longer, which isn't usually useful. All the 'Binding' Spells have a better chance of succeeding (harder Charisma Checks or better bonus against their SR).

Enchantment: Better Bindings. 10 more hours on Antipathy. Ok, not so great for Enchantment either, but all the above still applies.

Evoker: Polar Ray is maxed. All the higher level bigby's have +5 attack bonus. Additionally I could see a Red Wizard researching some higher level Evocations with larger caps.

Illusion: Long Lasting Illusions. Difficult to Dispel Illusions. Admittedly, Spell Power is not too great for illusions after level 20, but up until level 20 it was probably of great benefit.

Necromancy: More Undead to Control (10 HD more). Slightly Better Symbols of Death! (Joke). 5 more deaths to the Wail of Banshee. Not so great for Necromancers, except with regards to Undead.

Transmuters: Bigger Shapechange options (50 HD vs 40 HD), plus all the goodies you've had since before level 20.

Ok, so granted there is usually only 1 more thing these Red Wizards get for beyond level 20 status with Spell Power +5. But that is probably the smallest slice of the pie when it comes to actual playing time, and when you start getting into epic levels caster level becomes important again. Caster level is also important to Circle Magic in general, and aids Item Creation.

Is it a big booming bonus? No, not really, and you may have to be a little creative to get use out of it (if you want a lot of use). Otherwise its a nice solid bonus. Obviously there are some fun games you can play, with a 15th level red wizard (with a caster level of 20) who goes and picks up 5 other levels (perhaps 3 with spellcasting +1). Now he casts as a 23rd level caster, and can cast 9th level spells, but probably has some interesting abilities from those 2 levels where no spellcasting was gained.

Technik

 

[Janos Audron]

"I dont believe your spellblade dispel magic immunity works. The description of spellblade states "The chosen spell must be one that is targetted against the wielder (not a spell that affects an area)." Emphasis is mine, but clearly since Dispel and Greater Dispel can affect an area, they cannot be used in this manner. If I could memorize a specific dispel magic that targetted someone your plan would have more credence, but I choose which type of Dispel Magic I want upon casting, hence it does not fulfill the requirement for Spellblade."

An interesting view, however Dispel Magic is either targetted or area (and Logic learns us that it is thus a targetted spell (true or false = true) ), as is Flame Arrow. So, if you think Flame Arrow should not be stopped by spellblade, I guess we disagree on this...

"So Spellpower is still very good as a bonus to dispel others' spells, and make your own harder."

Agreed.

"Spellpower is still good as a 'lite' Spell Penetration."

True.

"Spellpower is very very good at lower levels, and still useful at higher levels (though only for a smaller range of spells)."

Yes, and that was one of the points of my argument. The higher level you become, the 'more useless' it becomes. What about an Epic Red Wizard, who only (yeah, and a whole *two* bonus feats) gets Spellpower (though up to +10). This does not really make the situation better, IMO.

"Exampls which do not include the gooies from above: *snip*"

I agree with the examples, but as I said, it is a *temporary* benefit.

"Personally I think Spell Power holds up fine. I think Create Magic Tattoo needs a tiny bit of erratta, perhaps 10 exp for the weak tattoo 30 for the medium one, and 50 for the excellent ones. This would be to dissuade making this an auto-buffer everyday (+2 competence to attacks is pretty fly, and thats only a DC 15)."

That is a harsh suggestion (but the way the rest of the second level buffs got nerfed, it seems like they might do something like that)... This does indeed fix the problem (150 XP/day for +3 Clvl isn't usually worth it...), though I don't think I would *like* the change.

"Of course where does our Red Wizard stand at level 20 (with Spell Power +5)? Well, the regular wizard (or even a wizard with a prc) seems behind, here are some benefits to the various schools:

Abjuration: More Difficult to Dispel Defenses. Better Banishments/Dismissals. Hardier Permanencies."

Yep, though I really have to ask myself: "Is that worth banning a *third* school?"

"Conjuartion: More Bang for your Gate (5 more HD). Regular wizards Gate in Balors, I gate in 25 HD Balors (vs 20) or 5th level Barbarian Balors. Summons last longer, which isn't usually useful. All the 'Binding' Spells have a better chance of succeeding (harder Charisma Checks or better bonus against their SR)."

I think this is actually useful.

"Enchantment: Better Bindings. 10 more hours on Antipathy. Ok, not so great for Enchantment either, but all the above still applies."

Well, I don't know about binding, but personally I'm more of a Kill and Soul Bind kinda person... Personally, I would say an Enchanter gets no benifit.

"Evoker: Polar Ray is maxed. All the higher level bigby's have +5 attack bonus. Additionally I could see a Red Wizard researching some higher level Evocations with larger caps."

Ok, quite useful.

"Illusion: Long Lasting Illusions. Difficult to Dispel Illusions. Admittedly, Spell Power is not too great for illusions after level 20, but up until level 20 it was probably of great benefit."

Sure, but that means Spellpower was a short term benifit, which is wrong for a PrC ability...

"Necromancy: More Undead to Control (10 HD more). Slightly Better Symbols of Death! (Joke). 5 more deaths to the Wail of Banshee. Not so great for Necromancers, except with regards to Undead."

Well, you can control more CR 11 (max) undead! Congratulations, you are able to scare the people in *names random hamlet*. Undead are great at low levels, when you face weak foes (Nec 4, Skeleton and Zombie killed 5 kobols), but at higher levels, they are toast (literally). Would you mind if I said there is no real benefit for Necromancers?

"Transmuters: Bigger Shapechange options (50 HD vs 40 HD), plus all the goodies you've had since before level 20."

Oh yes! This is great for Transmuters. This is the biggest benefit I see for any Red Wizard.

So, what about Diviners? I guess it still sucks for them.

"Ok, so granted there is usually only 1 more thing these Red Wizards get for beyond level 20 status with Spell Power +5. But that is probably the smallest slice of the pie when it comes to actual playing time, and when you start getting into epic levels caster level becomes important again. Caster level is also important to Circle Magic in general, and aids Item Creation."

Oh boy, did you mess up your argument here . Circle Magic is the most overpowered ability in the game. But if you are allowed to use it, the whole Spellpower benefit flies right out of the window.

"Hey, I've got caster level 30, which is enough to make all my spells un-Dispellable." True, you can save X spell levels because you have Spellpower +X, but what do you get? Two Empower Spells, a Maximize Spell and a Heighten Spell. So, when you use Circle Magic you get a shocking 3 Metamagic feats for your (primary?) class ability.

Further, if you use "Level is requirement for magic items", then yes, Spellpower is useful. We don't, so then it is only useful for Transmuters (who can make a +4 or a +5 earlier than non-Red Wizards).

"Is it a big booming bonus? No, not really, and you may have to be a little creative to get use out of it (if you want a lot of use). Otherwise its a nice solid bonus. Obviously there are some fun games you can play, with a 15th level red wizard (with a caster level of 20) who goes and picks up 5 other levels (perhaps 3 with spellcasting +1). Now he casts as a 23rd level caster, and can cast 9th level spells, but probably has some interesting abilities from those 2 levels where no spellcasting was gained."

It's a nice short term bonus, worth it if you *do not allow Circle Magic*. Your arguments have shown me that Spellpower isn't really as bad as I thought it was, however, I still do not think it is a good ability...

And let's stop using Circle Magic, since that just about makes Spell Power obsolete...

 

[Technik4]

Hopefully the Forgotten Realms Players Guide (3.5) will address certain spells (like Create Magic Tattoo). I dont have a problem with the tattoo really, except I think its a really weirdly written spell. It would be cool to have an NPC with this spell, charging a few bucks for a day's worth of powers, but if a mid/high level PC has it, why NOT blow the majority of your 2nd level spells giving people various bonuses? Of course, the ever-present dispel magic applies, but you probably weren't going to get around to casting 2nd level spells at a high level anyway. Its also weird that it is based on a craft check, and I honestly believe it needs a small material component (which is used up) or a small xp cost.

Although I think my comment is still valid that it would be more valuable to a Red Wizard with Spell Power (who is looking at ways to exploit high caster levels) rather than the average wizard.

As for the dispel magic on a +1 spellblade blade-boot, I mean come-on. If the rules didnt specifically have an easy way to bend them to say 'no' to this combo, I would personally Rule 0 it. There should not be an easy answer to a targetted Dispel Magic being cast on you. Ring of Counterspells is good for 1/day (until refilled) but that is the bar by which I would set other such abilities.

Again, it specifically states that it does not affect spells which affect an area. Since dispel magic can affect an area, logic tells us it is false .

You can't be a diviner in 3.5, although yeah it probably sucks for them to. Basically its very useful for Conjurer Red Wizard, Transmuter Red Wizard, and Evoker Red Wizard. Personally I think its decent for Necromancer Red Wizard or Abjurer Red Wizard. For Enchanters and Illusionists, I'll admit that you gain practically nothing beyond the base good benefit of spells that are more difficult to dispel (including permanancies) and you have greater spell penetration. Additionally you picked up the Tattoo Focus feat which is better than Spell Focus (as it also adds to Spell Penetration) and specifically for Red Wizards, specialist defense is still very good for Enchanters and decent for Illusionists.

For the Archmage prc, I think spell-power is good for Conj/Trans/Evok/Abj but should not really be bothered with for Necro/Illus/Ench. Unfortunately, this makes spell-power on the Shadow Adept somewhat worthless. Maybe if you had a choice between Caster Level and DCs for every point of Spell Power? This would make it more useful for the "shadow" schools.

Technik

 

[Janos Audron]

Well, the Create Magic Tattoo spell has a small material component: the ink. So that's what, a GP/casting? It isn't that much...

Well, the Red Wizard looking to exploit caster level sure can use it, but my main point was that it is better than Spellpower +3 (which is a 6th level ability).

When you remove Spellblade from the equation, then, yes, Spellpower is better than CMT. However, I don't get hit by Dispel Magic every freaking day. In some combats, it might indeed let you down, while in others it is still better.

Again, it specifically states that it does not affect spells which affect an area. Since dispel magic can affect an area, logic tells us it is false .

Isn't it great how one can argue either way with or...

You can't be a diviner in 3.5, although yeah it probably sucks for them to. Basically its very useful for Conjurer Red Wizard, Transmuter Red Wizard, and Evoker Red Wizard. Personally I think its decent for Necromancer Red Wizard or Abjurer Red Wizard. For Enchanters and Illusionists, I'll admit that you gain practically nothing beyond the base good benefit of spells that are more difficult to dispel (including permanancies) and you have greater spell penetration. Additionally you picked up the Tattoo Focus feat which is better than Spell Focus (as it also adds to Spell Penetration) and specifically for Red Wizards, specialist defense is still very good for Enchanters and decent for Illusionists.

You can pick tattoo focus without becoming a Red Wizard...

And I agree with your analysis, except that I don't think it's really useful for Necromancers...

For the Archmage prc, I think spell-power is good for Conj/Trans/Evok/Abj but should not really be bothered with for Necro/Illus/Ench. Unfortunately, this makes spell-power on the Shadow Adept somewhat worthless. Maybe if you had a choice between Caster Level and DCs for every point of Spell Power? This would make it more useful for the "shadow" schools.

Once again, I agree. However, is that fix a 'universal spellpower fix' or a 'shadow adept spellpower fix'? In the first instance, Spellpower has become as bad, if not worse (balance wise) as the 3.0 version. It will keep the Save or Die spells with insane DC's (DC 50 around level 20 isn't pretty when facing a Finger of Death), while at the same time allowing other characters to benefit from increased caster level. I think the main reason of the fix was to avoid that situation (the insane DC's, and I think it needed fixing, but I don't agree with the way they have done it) and to reintroduce the +1 save DC isn't a good option.

Maybe if you have to balance between level and DC? Or do you think that +1 DC isn't bad, as long as it doesn't give you a bonus to SR check (which the 3.0 version did as a bonus)?

 

[Technik4]

I think the following is reasonably balanced compared to feats.

Spellpower: Choose one of the following: +1 to spell DCs or +1 caster level.

Both the Red Wizard and the Shadow Adept state that the spellpower effects are limited to certain schools - for Red Wizard it is their specialized school, for shadow adepts it is Enchantments, Necromancies, and Illusions (and they only get it up to +3). Of course, for Archmages it applies to all spells they cast, but they have to give up a 5th level slot for the ability.

Therefore for Red Wizards it could merely be a Spell Focus (x) that can be taken repeatedly, for a Shadow Adept it would be more powerful, but they have little reason to take the +1 caster level (unless they wish for short-term effects), and for Archmages it is a super Spell Focus (all). I think its reasonable, it still performs worse than the 3.0 version (which aided Spell Penetration) but for some schools it is far better than +1 caster level.

I think spell DCs will still never reach their 3.0 equivelants due to the nerfing of the 2 main ways to pump DCs, SF and GSF. I am also eagerly awaiting to see if Spellcasting Prodigy gets a shift, since right now it is extremely powerful compared to most feats (although honestly, its always been a very powerful feat).

A little note about Tattoo Focus and Create Magic Tattoo, the feat has specific regional requirements, namely that you are from Thay. The spell meanwhile costs quite a few ranks in Craft (Drawing) or some-such, and can't even begin to function as spellpower until the wizard is 13th level. Considering that a Red Wizard can get spellpower going as early as 7th level (and a shadow adept as early as 8th) I'd say spellpower is still more powerful. I might also stipulate that the same tattoo cannot affect the same person, so while the limit is 3 tattoos, you can only have 1 tattoo of +1 spellcasting level. This is even more important when it comes to the +2 Competence bonus to attack (competence bonuses always stack, I believe) since +6 to attack is a lot more broken that +3 caster level for 3 2nd level slots.

And being the bastard DM that I am, I would probably require a wizard to justify learning such a spell (although already having some craft (drawing) would probably be enough to mitigate it).

Technik