Spells Are Magic Items (Fighters vs. Wizards!)

[I'm A Banana]

So in the usual fighters vs. wizards conversations going on, about how one is underpowered, one is overpowered, and all that noise, I think there has been a missed point:

In early editions, spells were not automatically learned. They were randomly acquired, or expensively researched.

By the same token, magic items were not automatically awared. They were randomly rolled, or perhaps expensively crafted.

So it's entirely possible to wind up with a wizard who can't fly, turn invisible, scry, charm, buff, save-or-die, or teleport, but to wind up with a fighter who, via equipment (some of it equipment that she is the best at using, such as weapons, armor, shields, etc.), can do all those things and more.

This was, I believe, a consideration taken into account in early fighter/wizard balance issues. Wizards could become very powerful (via spells), but they could also randomly NOT be, and fighters had the same potential (via equipment).

As time dragged on, we've given wizards more control over their spells, but we haven't given fighters more control over their equipment - even in the wishlist days of 4e treasure awards, a fighter and a wizard BOTH get bonus equipment relevant to them.

So here's the question: should we let fighters automatically craft new gear, like we allow wizards to automatically gain new spells? Or should the pendulum swing the other way: should we force wizards to roll again to be randomly awareded spells, just as the fighters have to endure being randomly awarded magic weapons and armor? Or should we hit somewhere in the middle with this?

Let me know your thoughts!

 

[Minigiant]

Make the wizards roll to learn any spell outside of their specialization school.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

The original was that the ability to cast them was granted, but the knowledge of the spells and how to cast a particular one was not automatic. You got the slot at a set class level. What you got to put in it was questionable.

Alternately, you could reverse this. Wizard and clerics and so forth get the knowledge of how to do anything they can spend the time and effort to learn--and this comes with levels. (You can flavor this as practice, learning from a teacher, studying old tomes, prayer ... anything will work.) But then only grant the power via something like items.

I think most people, most of the time, would prefer the original to the reverse option. You need to somewhat squeeze your mind into the universe where the reverse makes sense, in order to roll with it. But as long as there is some component that so limits spells, you get the desired effect.

 

[Gadget]

Many people do not like their Fighter being a flesh coat rack for oodles of magical bling to make them viable. In fact, I remember this being one the key complaints of the 'Christmas Tree' effect in late 3e: The Fighter could remain semi-viable if he had a plethora of magic items that replicated or nullified many of the spells that made the spell-slingers so dominant. Of course magic users benefited from the Christmas Tree effect as well, and this could make the class disparity even worse, but they were not nearly so dependant on it as the Fighter types.

Also, I would hazard a guess that many players do not favour the Ultimate Cosmic Power (Potential to cast many game breaking spells) -- Itty bitty living space (Completely arbitrary, or fairly unlikely, you'll ever get access to any of those spells) method of game balance.

 

[dkyle]

I strongly dislike randomized character creation, so a return to Wizards needing to roll to see what spells they can cast doesn't appeal to me.

I also don't like magic items being much more than incremental boosts. I prefer that the big, major character abilities be choices of the player, rather than whims of the DM, and/or rolls on a treasure table.

But that's all because character building and customization is a huge part of what I enjoy in RPGs.

 

[hanez]

I dont think it should be random. But I do think theres lots of potential here. Fighters should get more access to items, which can simply be done by buffing the martial weapons and redefining the DMs advice and adventures to make them more plentiful.

Wizards should have limited choice (e..g one per level, and the rest should be done by adventuring or purchase)

 

[tlantl]

Kamikaze Midget, you forgot that wizards could be severely limited in the number of spells they could know as well. If they had an intelligence score closer to ten than eighteen then they only had nine spells per level and their chance to learn spells was pretty low too.

I believe the out of control wizard is a result of tossing these rules out the window. A return to this kind of control certainly wouldn't hurt, Of course there are those who don't like being limited like this, and they can be pretty loud, so I have no illusions about this coming to pass.

I'm pretty sure that if imposing limits like this were the case there would be no need to invent ways for fighters to improve their gear. Besides players could pretty much do this already with the magic mart mentality that came along with 3e.

 

[Kaodi]

Well, if wizards actually required specially crafted items to use certain kinds of magic (or to use it well, in any case). Like, without a wand or staff of fire all of your fire spells damage dice is two steps lower...

 

[Ramaster]

I would like to see the fighter (or at least a fighter archetype or theme or whatever kids these days call them) diligently reforging his armor and weapons every other level, standing in the forge, saying "Mmm, those Dragon Scales sure came in handy for the construction of the Fireproof Plate of Greater Protection... Bet the Frozen Lightning I got on the Cave of Eversnow will make my greatsword pretty cool... literally!"

 

[Grazzt]

Kamikaze Midget, you forgot that wizards could be severely limited in the number of spells they could know as well. If they had an intelligence score closer to ten than eighteen then they only had nine spells per level and their chance to learn spells was pretty low too.

I believe the out of control wizard is a result of tossing these rules out the window. A return to this kind of control certainly wouldn't hurt, Of course there are those who don't like being limited like this, and they can be pretty loud, so I have no illusions about this coming to pass.

I'm pretty sure that if imposing limits like this were the case there would be no need to invent ways for fighters to improve their gear. Besides players could pretty much do this already with the magic mart mentality that came along with 3e.

Must spread XP around apparently, but I agree with this.