Spells Are Magic Items (Fighters vs. Wizards!)

[Dragonblade]

Randomness in an RPG should exist to provide variability, excitement and tension whenever there is an element of doubt as to success. Or when an arbitrary method for choosing among otherwise equal discrete elements is needed.

Randomness should never be used as a method of balance, IMO.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I agree sells known and finding spells makes an ok equalizer

 

[Ahnehnois]

I think it's worth noting that a bigger problem than arcane casters has been divine ones, who know every spell in the PHB (I believe this was true pre-3e as well). The CoDzilla factor is substantially fueled by this incredible versatility.

As far as crafting, I'm not a big fan of that as being a central mechanic. I would prefer to see a character be considered without items as well as with for balance, because magic item distribution is really DM-dependent.

 

[FireLance]

In much the same way that late-4e had a common/uncommon/rare split for magic items, perhaps there should be a common/uncommon/rare split for spells. I don't think this is an original idea: didn't Monte Cook have a similar system in the Book of Eldritch Might?

Anyway, such an approach would allow players some flexibility to customize their characters, at least with respect to common spells. However, access to the more powerful spells (possibly including better versions of the more common spells) would be left to chance or DM placement.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

In much the same way that late-4e had a common/uncommon/rare split for magic items, perhaps there should be a common/uncommon/rare split for spells. I don't think this is an original idea: didn't Monte Cook have a similar system in the Book of Eldritch Might?

Yes he did. And if he had toned down the elemental flexibility, been a little stingier with placing stuff in the middle category, not provided quite so many different ways to get into the exotic versions, and/or capped a few of the spells a little harder--it would have been pretty close to balanced most of the time. At least it would up to 6th level spells or so. We never got beyond that.

Of course, AE also featured a concerted effort to excise many of the "instant solution" D&D spells or replace them with buffs to skills (e.g. charm person is a bonus to skill checks against the charmed person, not anything automatic).

Given the resources of WotC to playtest it more widely, I suspect many of those issues could have been handled.

 

[TwinBahamut]

It's not really the topic of discussion, but I'd be pretty happy with the idea that spells really are magic items. In other words, wizards don't really memorize anything but the most basic of spells, and anything beyond such a basic spell can't even be copied. In other words, wizards need to carry around a spellbook for each spell they use, and invoke their power in a manner not unlike reading a scroll in 3E (except it is harder to do, and the book doesn't go away). What is more, such a system could open up the possibility that anyone could theoretically read a spellbook and use its spell, but Wizards and such are just better at it (like how anyone can carry a sword, but Fighters are just better at it). Magic spells really would be magic items, treated the exact same way as something like a powerful magic sword.

 

[howandwhy99]

So here's the question: should we let fighters automatically craft new gear, like we allow wizards to automatically gain new spells? Or should the pendulum swing the other way: should we force wizards to roll again to be randomly awareded spells, just as the fighters have to endure being randomly awarded magic weapons and armor? Or should we hit somewhere in the middle with this?

I like the middle ground. Custom equipment ordering was also old school. Draw it up on a piece of paper and maybe that NPC pounding on the anvil could construct something like that for you.

Magic-Users did get 2 spells / level they could custom create or they could just pick from available lists (like their trainers). This meant custom designed spells unique to the caster (divine casters too, but in another way). You could even call them your own (e.g. Melf's Acid Arrow or Haroo's Bovine Bloating).

Fighters could create different fighting styles too, if they so desired. It wasn't all two-handed lochaber axes, katana and wakazashi, or gladius and scutum.

On the flip side, not everything was free and easy. PCs were not NPCs with NPC classes. They hadn't spent years of their lives trying to become a better weaver (though you could trade off for that, if you were willing to age and give up the years). Fighters did not have access to trainers of every known style of fighting. Neither did Wizards have access to every spells known in the world. (Both were limited by their mentors)

I like spell learning for arcane casters, 'cause then they actually have to work at magic (unlike those divine twerps who just receive 'em via revelation). % chance to learn for each spell, 1/level/spell. Even if they failed, M-Us could roll again for Invisibility next level or choose it this level as one of their 2 freebies. (Divine casters weren't really primarily casters in the same way they weren't really primarily fighters either, but that's another story)

Spells were definitely treasure for arcane casters, like arms and armor were for fighters. Equipment didn't have to be magical to be useful. Magic was the for magic-users anyways, magic weapons were just crossover.