Spells for Non-Spellcasters 101

[Stormborn]

How about this:
Require a feat that makes Spellcraft a class skill. A feat is a way of impossing penalties in itself. Since we are talking about training here, feats often represent sepcialized training. This feat would require that the character have a mentor spell caster who was at least His level +3 (I think twice his level is a bit much, but I agree that the mentor needs to be of a significantly higher level.) There after the character can learn a number of spells equal to his Intelligience Modifier of arcane spells or his Wisdom Modifer of Divine Spells. A characer cannot learn a spell if its level is higher than he would know if he was of his tutors class. INOW, a 6th level fighter cannot learn a spell that a 6th level wizard couldn't learn. Learning requires a week per spell level (min 1 week) and at the end of which a Spellcraft check is made of DC 15+the spell level. If succesful then he has learned the spell, if not then he may make another check after a second week has passed, otherwise start over, your basic concept is flawed.
To cast a spell requires a full round action (its harder for the noncaster to do it) and a Spellcraft check of 10+spell level (since it is easier to cast once you know it than to learn). Spells are always cast at the minimum caster level needed to cast the spell. If the spell is cast succesfully the caster temporarilly looses STR equal to 1 point per spell level, minimum 1. These are recovered at the normal rate. I don't think HP is a good alternative, since the classes we are talking about have tons of that. STR on the other hand is their bread and butter, if you are going to step outside your normal idiom it should cost you. I would limit the spells available to those that had no costly material components of XP costs, those should remain the province of the experts on magic.

Why do this? Knowing a spell is potentially more valuable than having an item since it can't be taken away, used up, or rendered useless. Not to mention the element of suprise. And its actually cheaper and more adaptable in the long run.
Why do it this way? A feat will make it more balanced, the limit on number of spells will keep the spells valuable and rare, the need to roll keeps the integrity of the spell casting classes by making magic more diffiuclt for the unintiated, ditto for the increased casting time, ditto for minimum caster level, and the STR penatly will mean that spells are the last resort of a warrior not the first.

Or there is the ritual magic system from Arcana Unearthed/Urban Arcana.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Primitive Screwhead and Stormborn, I see your points about teacher versus mentor level. Yes, twice the level is somewhat unreasonable, I can see this now.

How about this?

Learner Level + Level of Spell to be Learned = Minimum Level of Mentor.

Thus, if the 5th Level Fighter wanted to learn Fireball, he or she would have to seek out an 8th level mentor. If the 17th level Paladin from the example far above wished to learn Wish, a 26th level Wizard's services need be sought as opposed to those of a 34th level Wizard. In retrospect, the main reason I erred on the side of "high teacher level" was to prevent interparty teaching and mentoring. The easier such a system is made for becoming more powerful, the more subject to abuse it is. In DOUBLE RETROSPECT, I fear that the bulk of this paragraph suggests rules for, indeed, getting spells too easily!

Dakkareth makes a very good point, why would I, as a character, desire to jump through the hoops of your system when its cheaper and easier to get a Wonderous Item that gives me the *exact same ability*?

Nay. Any sort of "attachment" (like an item or such) can easily be lost, broken, stolen, distorted, drained, or otherwise destroyed. OTOH, knowing a spell in one's brain is an entirely different matter!

 

[Tuzenbach]

The spell needs to be set at a certain caster level, not set to equal the characters total level. Cost out the price for a 1st level archer to learn Magic Missile 'at will' under your system. Now advance that archer up to 20th level.... is the XP cost significant for the power gained? I would suggest the caster level be set when the spell is learned, at the lowest level of either the student or the teacher...or lower if the teacher desires.

Again, quite right Screwhead. Quite right, but quite wrong as well. Yes, I had thought of how easily a 1st level spell might be attained, yet hadn't thought of that same spell's implications in the hands of a 20th level caster. Good call there. However, setting a fixed caster level would make me (the learner) irritated that the spell's power wouldn't increase as I increased in levels. The concept is somewhat akin to pairs of jeans from 12 years ago. Are they wearable? Sure! Do they still fit me? Sadly, no.

No, the limit shouldn't figure into the overall caster level, but the cost for obtaining the low level spell at such high a level. The price paid should somehow be commensurately higher, Im just not sure right now how to go about it. It will come to me before day's end, though.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

HARP has a special mixed-blood ability that can be purchased at character creation. You can swap out one ability for another that your race would not normally have.

So, how about a feat that grants you a spell like ability, once per day. You give up one class feature equal to one level higher than the spell you are purchasing.

Example.

A Fighter gives up his weapon specialization bonus feat at 4th level to cast Bull's Strength once per day.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Harp?

 

[rbingham2000]

Learner Level + Level of Spell to be Learned = Minimum Level of Mentor.

Thus, if the 5th Level Fighter wanted to learn Fireball, he or she would have to seek out an 8th level mentor. If the 17th level Paladin from the example far above wished to learn Wish, a 26th level Wizard's services need be sought as opposed to those of a 34th level Wizard. In retrospect, the main reason I erred on the side of "high teacher level" was to prevent interparty teaching and mentoring. The easier such a system is made for becoming more powerful, the more subject to abuse it is. In DOUBLE RETROSPECT, I fear that the bulk of this paragraph suggests rules for, indeed, getting spells too easily!

Keep in mind that wizards, especially powerful wizards, probably aren't the type to teach the use of their powers to just anyone. A wizard would be perfectly within his rights to require something moderately difficult done for him so the prospective student can prove himself worthy of learning the chosen spell. Needless to say, this can open up a lot of adventure opportunities.

And unless you're playing a really insane game, there are probably going to be very few wizards of more than 20th level running around in a given world, as those would mainly be considered epic-level characters.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Keep in mind that wizards, especially powerful wizards, probably aren't the type to teach the use of their powers to just anyone. A wizard would be perfectly within his rights to require something moderately difficult done for him so the prospective student can prove himself worthy of learning the chosen spell. Needless to say, this can open up a lot of adventure opportunities.

And unless you're playing a really insane game, there are probably going to be very few wizards of more than 20th level running around in a given world, as those would mainly be considered epic-level characters.

Too true.


I've almost finished the new equations, so check back with this thread Monday-ish.