Spells that use an XP-Cost as a component

[kreynolds]

Nome that I am aware of. Just looking for any theries

There is a way around this. First of all, dragons cannot create items unless they take a spellcasting class. You have to remember that they do not have the feats required, nor can they take them, to create items. They can cast arcane spells as if they were a certain level of sorcerer, so they basically have an nearly limitless list of spell-like abilities.

However, it seem silly that since some dragons are so fond of polymorphing into humanoids and frolicking with the ladies, occassionally spawning half-dragons, that they would not want to craft equipment for themselves while they are in humanoid form. Also, song dragons, from the Monsters of Faerun, are quite fond of humans and converse with them in human form on a regular basis. If a song dragon has a friend who is a wizard that likes to create items, wouldn't it stand to reason that maybe that song dragon would become interested in making some for himself?

Dragons, like most other monsters, are fully capable of taking on an actual class. Because they can polymorph, they can fully equip themselves to function within any given class.

Thus, it stands to reason that a dragon can take a spellcasting class, purchase the item creation feats, and spend the XP to fashion magical items. But this is the only way I allow dragons to create items or spend any XP what-so-ever. Keep in mind that monsters don't use XP. If they did, we would know. So if a monster doesn't have any classes, they don't have any XP.

Besides, on of my favorite types of NPCs, though I use them very sparingly, are dragon wizards.

 

[CRGreathouse]

First of all, dragons cannot create items unless they take a spellcasting class. You have to remember that they do not have the feats required, nor can they take them, to create items.

The requirement for all PH Item Creation feats is "Spellcaster level X+" where X is between 1 and 12. Look at the charts in the MM if you don't think dragons have a spellcaster level... pages 64-76. It's always on the second chart.

The DMG does state that classless monsters-as-PCs have XP (DMG page 24). XP for NPCs is never discussed, but they presumably use the same rules (with CR mod instead of ECL, obviously). There's no rule that states that classless monsters don't have XP anywhere in the core books.

 

[Someguy]

Monsters can advance...

 

[kreynolds]

The requirement for all PH Item Creation feats is "Spellcaster level X+" where X is between 1 and 12. Look at the charts in the MM if you don't think dragons have a spellcaster level... pages 64-76. It's always on the second chart.

The DMG does state that classless monsters-as-PCs have XP (DMG page 24). XP for NPCs is never discussed, but they presumably use the same rules (with CR mod instead of ECL, obviously). There's no rule that states that classless monsters don't have XP anywhere in the core books.

Logic is obviously not used here (not an insult, just an observation). You can't have XP if you don't have a class. Why? Because you can't have a class if you DON'T HAVE XP. Make sense? No? Then perhaps we should just automatically give the dragons 19 or so sorcerer levels without calculating that into challenge ratings. Monsters DO NOT have classes by default. Monsters that don't advance like normal (i.e. those that advance by class) state so in their advancement block. Dragons do not have that advancement block, so by default, they do not have classes.

Monsters advance by straight up Hit Die, as noted in the Monster Manual and Monsters of Faerun. They can earn feats and skill points by hit die advancement, or by taking class levels. So, technically, the only way for a dragon to purchase Item Creation feats is to be advanced through either Hit Die or Class Levels.

Either way, a dragon cannot logically create magic items unless they are advanced in some fashion. That's the logical stance, anyway.

 

[kreynolds]

There's no rule that states that classless monsters don't have XP anywhere in the core books.

Also, I would just like to point out that the general stance of Wizards of the Coast is as follows: If it doesn't say so, it doesn't mean so. This is obvious by reading the FAQ. If it really is an error, meaning simple human logic cannot solve this problem, then there is no point in arguing until we get the response from Wizards.

 

[Little_Buddha]

Logic is obviously not used here (not an insult, just an observation). You can't have XP if you don't have a class. Why? Because you can't have a class if you DON'T HAVE XP. Make sense? No?

Ummmm... That's not logical.

Your position appears to be: Why can't you have XP without classes? Because classes require XP!

OK, classes require XP. That doesn't mean that XP requires classes. Your "proof" is just a statement of your position. It isn't actual rebuttal to CRGreathouse's position.

Then perhaps we should just automatically give the dragons 19 or so sorcerer levels without calculating that into challenge ratings.

WHAT? Why? Do you think that this is a logical extension of classless monsters having XP? What a bizarre thing to say! If a dragon has "inherent" XP (without adding a class), it just means that being a dragon "costs" it many levels (as it does when you create a monstrous PC).

It doesn't even imply that you should "automatically" give 19 levels of a class without factoring it into the CR. I honestly have no idea where you got that idiotic idea.

Monsters DO NOT have classes by default. Monsters that don't advance like normal (i.e. those that advance by class) state so in their advancement block. Dragons do not have that advancement block, so by default, they do not have classes.

Well done! However, this line of reasoning simply takes for granted the truth of your assumption that you cannot have XP without also having a class. CRGreathouse's position is that classless monsters do have XP, as implied by the fact that PC monsters have XP without class.

Either way, a dragon cannot logically create magic items unless they are advanced in some fashion. That's the logical stance, anyway.

Oh? I think you meant to slide an "in my opinion" in there somewhere. Or at least an "in my campaign". Personally, I think that a spellcaster as powerful as a dragon should logically have the ability to imbue items with some fraction of that power. Who are you to tell me that they logically can't?

 

[kreynolds]

OK. I hate arguments involving symantecs so I'm not even going to bother. Let me put it another way. Look at how dragons advance. As they age, their spellcasting level goes up. Also, as they age, they earn feats, skill points, etc, etc.

Their advancement blocks do not list the feats they take, thus you need to pick them. So, if you want a dragon to be able to create magic items, he needs the appropriate feats, which he can attain because of age and advancement.

What I was arguing is this. Monster PC's have XP, Non-monster PC's have XP. It is obvious that Non-monster NPC's have XP as well. I assume they use the same level system, otherwise, how would spellcaster NPC's ever be able to create items if they didn't have XP.

My argument is this. NOWHERE, in ANY of the books, does it say MONSTERS HAVE XP. Monsters have Hit Die, and as PC characters, yes, they have XP. Now, you could also argue that by referencing the monster advancement chart in the monster manual, that they do have XP. For example, Constructs level as clerics and outsiders level as fighters. So, you could assign XP. My argument was not focused entirely on dragons, it was about all monsters.

Does it make sense for a standard goblin to make a magic item? No. Even if he does XP, which, technically, he does, he doesn't have enough, nor does he have the feats, nor does he have the skills.

Bottom line: A dragon meets all the requirements to qualify for item creation feats, they also earn plenty of skill points for spellcraft, alchemy, etc. They also earn feats as they age. So, yes, a dragon can make magic items, but can they do that at ALL age categories? No.

And who am I to tell you that they logically can't? What, are you upset? This is a discussion. Relax and take a breath. I have not been rude. I have not been mean. I have merely stated my opinion. I kind of figured that's what forums and message boards are for, stating opinions. If you don't want to hear mine, no problem, ignore me. Also, note that I said I intended no insult in my previous post.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You agree that normal PCs have XP, that monster PCs have XP, and that normal NPCs have XP. You never mentioned monster NPCs with class levels - you agree, do you not, that an NPC bugbear Ftr3 has XP?

Here's the crucial part. bugbears have an ECL of +3. A human NPC Ftr3 has 3,000 XP, but an NPC bugbear Ftr3 has 15,000 XP. An NPC human Ftr1 has 0 XP, and an NPC bugbear Ftr1 has 6,000 XP.

Where did those initial XP come from?

 

[kreynolds]

See previous post. And sorry about this spelling (rough morning). This was from my post

BEGIN

Bottom line: A dragon meets all the requirements to qualify for item creation feats, they also earn plenty of skill points for spellcraft, alchemy, etc. They also earn feats as they age. So, yes, a dragon can make magic items, but can they do that at ALL age categories? No.

END

Yes. I see monsters having XP, but as you can see from the quote from my post, you still have to be careful about their age category: they may not have the feats, skills, spells, or XP yet. The older the dragon the easier and more items they can make. Younger youngs, just like low level players, have a harder time because their skills are lower, they have less item creation feats, and most importantly, they have less XP to spend.

Also, everyone needs to remember that you can't spend so much XP that you would lose a level. If someone argues this one, I'm gonna puke. So, yeah, I agree. I said that in my post about Siymantecxhs. (Sorry, had to mess with ya.)

What I was worried about was the direction this post was headed, which was: If a dragon has a spellcasting level of 19, they have 190,000 XP to spend! Cool! Nobody said that and it didn't actually go that far. Luckily.

And besides, we are all helping each other out here, right? There isn't one person on these boards that knows everything. I though there was, then I proved him wrong 20 minutes after signing up here. Look, I'm just saying that none of us knows everything and I value everyone's opinion. Just trying to keep the discussion in focus, is all.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Yes. I see monsters having XP, but as you can see from the quote from my post, you still have to be careful about their age category: they may not have the feats, skills, spells, or XP yet. The older the dragon the easier and more items they can make. Younger youngs, just like low level players, have a harder time because their skills are lower, they have less item creation feats, and most importantly, they have less XP to spend.

I agree that they need the caster level, feats, and a high enough store of XP.

All references to "semantics" have been removed from my earlier post.