spells you think are the wrong level

[Plane Sailing]

I'm going to completely refute this thread by claiming that all spells are at their right level. Whether the details of the individual spells are balanced or not is another matter - I'd rather the spell be fixed for it's level than changed level.

How would you fix illusory wall, I wonder?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Polar Ray: This spell is ridiculously powerful. You can attack a creature in combat without hitting your allies - and you probably will hit, no worries about evasion and high saves. At fifteenth level, you're doing an average of 52 damage, so causing a massive damage save and doing respectable damage even to something with Cold Resistance 30.

Words fail me when I try to think of how bad Polar Ray is, for an 8th level spell. With your example above, an average of 52 damage from a ranged touch spell (hope there isn't concealment or mirror image in play) is chickenfeed; Maximised Fireball at 6th level does a guaranteed 60 damage to all in the area of effect, if you are worried about evasive targets Horrid Wilting will do 15d6 to up to 15 targets (Fort save for half, no evasion worries and it is untyped damage), if something doesn't have energy resistance then empowered maximised scorching ray at 7th for 3x(24+2d6) for an average of 93 looks somewhat better, or quickened empowered scorching ray + empowered scorching ray for 6x(6d6) for an average of 126?

Scorching ray is useless if someone has resistance 30 up, but 22 damage from polar ray isn't exactly anything to write home about in the similar circumstances either.

8th level spell to do an average of 22 damage? No thanks!

Quickened maximised magic missle is guaranteed 30 points damage with no chance of missing as an 8th level spell and can be joined together with any other spell in the round...

 

[STARP_Social_Officer]

I've always thought Raise Dead is a pretty over-powerful spell for 5th level. A 9th-level Cleric is bringing back the dead - that's a pretty hard-core miracle, when you think about it.

 

[Shade]

Enlarge person and ray of enfeeblement have wreaked the most havoc on my game.

Enlarge person is good enough to tempt most fighter-types to take a level of sorcerer just to get the massive benefits this spell provides. What fighter doesn't want 10-foot reach and greater weapon damage? On top of this, the larger size category makes the character effectively immune to many creatures improved grab, swallow whole, and trample abilities. And the nail in the coffin for me is that it only affects humanoids, so the monsters can't up their own size to keep things balanced.

Ray of enfeeblement is the opening volley of any spellcaster. Sure, it doesn't stack with itself. But it is just too easy to pull off. A ranged touch attack is hardly a balancing factor. The duration is long enough that it essentially last the whole combat. It can really only be removed with dispel magic at low levels (since it isn't ability damage, lesser restoration and other spells won't remove it). And at 1st level, it is probably the most desirable spell for metamagic. An empowered ray on enfeeblement has a good chance of rendering most spellcaster types effectively helpless.

 

[Huw]

Words fail me when I try to think of how bad Polar Ray is, for an 8th level spell.

You're not thinking of it in the right context. I don't want to do loads of damage to many targets. I want to do absolutely stupid amounts of damage to a single target (such as a BBEG).

Horrid Wilting affects more targets and has a longer range. Polar Ray is likely to do more damage and affects a wider variety of targets (Horrid Wilting doesn't work againts undead, constructs or anything the DM decides isn't living). They're both top notch 8th spells.

How would you fix illusory wall, I wonder?

What's the problem with it?

 

[Huw]

And at 1st level, it is probably the most desirable spell for metamagic. An empowered ray on enfeeblement has a good chance of rendering most spellcaster types effectively helpless.

I agree about the metamagic. However, I don't get "effectively helpess". What mage carries more than 10lb of gear outside their backpack? Even if you bump them into overloaded, they can still chuck spells. You've just stopped them running away.

 

[Shade]

I agree about the metamagic. However, I don't get "effectively helpess". What mage carries more than 10lb of gear outside their backpack? Even if you bump them into overloaded, they can still chuck spells. You've just stopped them running away.

OK, maybe "effectively helpless" was a bit of an overstatement, but it does make them much less mobile and even easier to grapple than normal. If they are armored, though, they're screwed. Not all clerics have a high Str score, for example.

 

[Voadam]

Ice storm. Should be lower level or last longer.

5d6 area for a 4th level wizard evocation is poor, poor, poor. Fireball for 7-10d6 is far preferable and it comes with a lower level slot.

Big tall area = no big deal. Environmental conditions for 1 round = no big deal.

Fine for a druid spell, not for an evoker.

 

[Driddle]

We kind of take for granted that the powers that be have correctly assigned the right level to a given spell. I think some of it holds over from earlier editions, frankly.

I was thinking recently that the invisibility and greater invisibility spells were maybe a level or two too low -- maybe invisibility should be 3rd and greater invis should be 5th.

You're right. I agree.





... What?! I got nothing more to contribute. Just wanted to say Eric is right. Sometimes that's enough.

 

[Elemental]

Silence needs a rewrite at the best. Why would anybody ever counterspell when they can just ready to "cast Silence just above his head when he starts casting"?

Outside the core, Shivering Touch (Frostburn) is absurd. A Level 3 touch spell (castable through a Spectral Hand) to deal 3d6 DEX damage with no save?! When the PC's get past level 11 (or earlier, if you have a class with a metamagic-adding ability), watch it get Maximised and the monsters paralysed in one or two hits.

I'd definitely agree here.

Evocation seems to be the most useless school around now. Conjurers can do just as much damage (Sand Blast, the Orb spells) without having to worry about SR. And they can also summon stuff and teleport.

You're not thinking of it in the right context. I don't want to do loads of damage to many targets. I want to do absolutely stupid amounts of damage to a single target (such as a BBEG).

Horrid Wilting affects more targets and has a longer range. Polar Ray is likely to do more damage and affects a wider variety of targets (Horrid Wilting doesn't work againts undead, constructs or anything the DM decides isn't living). They're both top notch 8th spells.

However, a Maximised Orb of Cold will do more damage (90) than an Polar Ray from a level 20 caster (70 average), has a secondary blinding effect and it's level 7. Oh, and it ignores SR.

If you've got two metamagic feats, a maximised + empowered Scorching Ray (a level 7 spell) will do 72 + (half of 12d6) fire damage. More rays mean more miss chances, but also more chances to crit, so that about cancels out.

So that's your stupid amount of damage for one or two metamagic feats that most casters pick up anyway, without expending a level 8 slot.