-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Spiked Chain + Great Cleave = DM's Nightmare
- Thread starter Azlan
- Start date
frankthedm
First Post
[IMaGel]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2130/coveredrj4.th.gif[/IMaGel] ____________________________________
Originally posted by mvincent
Yup. If you allies between you and the cleaver, you can often move about with impunity. So if a mook is planning to move towards the cleaver, her should either:
a) have no allies already there (so they'll be no one to cleave unto), or
b) move up behind his ally (using him for cover until the very last square).
____________________________________
The Cascade and other frms of AoO denial are a very good tactic to deal with Spiked Cheese. Do note, an ally does not provide cover while moving through his sqaure. Cutting accros diagnlally is fine, but moving through the allies space to get to the target does not work.
Originally posted by mvincent
Yup. If you allies between you and the cleaver, you can often move about with impunity. So if a mook is planning to move towards the cleaver, her should either:
a) have no allies already there (so they'll be no one to cleave unto), or
b) move up behind his ally (using him for cover until the very last square).
____________________________________
The Cascade and other frms of AoO denial are a very good tactic to deal with Spiked Cheese. Do note, an ally does not provide cover while moving through his sqaure. Cutting accros diagnlally is fine, but moving through the allies space to get to the target does not work.
Last edited:
azhrei_fje
First Post
You've gotten some (obvious?) advice to upgrade your bad guys. Instead of lots of 1HD mooks, build them up a bit so that they don't die on their first hit.
Another possibility is some simple tactics. A bunch of mooks approach and are wiped out. So others run away and the fighter follows... and falls into a pit trap (where I might rule that his chain can't be used vertically -- you would agree if you saw the Discovery channel show on oriental weapons, specifically the whip chain or dagger chain).
I can also see the mooks knowing about a "haunted" area and drawing the PCs into it. Of course, the area isn't really haunted, but it is hunted by a couple of pixies who loving pulling pranks while invisible. Such pranks could put the fighter at a real disadvantage. (Hmm. An invisible pixie carries an invisible 10-foot pole and sticks it into a hole in the ground covered by a permanent illusion. When the fighter starts his schtick, the pixie sets his pole into the ground which really screws up someone with a swinging weapon as it wraps around the pole! A missed Reflex save and the fighter lets go of his weapon! The party lured into the territory of a couple of CR4 pixies could be in for some bad times!)
Another possibility is some simple tactics. A bunch of mooks approach and are wiped out. So others run away and the fighter follows... and falls into a pit trap (where I might rule that his chain can't be used vertically -- you would agree if you saw the Discovery channel show on oriental weapons, specifically the whip chain or dagger chain).
I can also see the mooks knowing about a "haunted" area and drawing the PCs into it. Of course, the area isn't really haunted, but it is hunted by a couple of pixies who loving pulling pranks while invisible. Such pranks could put the fighter at a real disadvantage. (Hmm. An invisible pixie carries an invisible 10-foot pole and sticks it into a hole in the ground covered by a permanent illusion. When the fighter starts his schtick, the pixie sets his pole into the ground which really screws up someone with a swinging weapon as it wraps around the pole! A missed Reflex save and the fighter lets go of his weapon! The party lured into the territory of a couple of CR4 pixies could be in for some bad times!)
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Bagpuss said:
"Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately."
-Hyp.
Quartz
Hero
What about the space required for the character to use his spiked chain?
And don't feel too badly about the mages: they could easily take Craft Wand and be blasting fireballs all day.
But really, you're giving the guy a chance to shine, and as long as the others get their chances too, all is well.
And don't feel too badly about the mages: they could easily take Craft Wand and be blasting fireballs all day.
But really, you're giving the guy a chance to shine, and as long as the others get their chances too, all is well.
The whole thing about the figher's build is Great Cleave and hope to drop the opponent in one round, or AoO. So instead of using 100 mooks with 1 HD, you could:
- Use less mooks with more HD.
- Heck, use a single BBEG.
- Use Undead: Spiked Chain is Piercing damage, which does not bypass the Damage Reduction of zombies and skeletons.
- Use archers.
- Use Reach. Hey, Longspears are Simple weapons.
- Level 1 sorcerers with Magic Missile.
- Level 1 fighters with Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and a Lance. For another level of Fighter add Spirited Charge.
- Use Tumble so your small guys avoid AoOs when closing onto the fighter.
- Slippery surfaces and Level 2 Rogues (the goblin's favored class). Unless the Fighter has 5 ranks in Balance, which he probably doesn't, he will be considered flat-footed. Bad enough, plus flat-footed opponents don't get AoOs.
- Use less mooks with more HD.
- Heck, use a single BBEG.
- Use Undead: Spiked Chain is Piercing damage, which does not bypass the Damage Reduction of zombies and skeletons.
- Use archers.
- Use Reach. Hey, Longspears are Simple weapons.
- Level 1 sorcerers with Magic Missile.
- Level 1 fighters with Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and a Lance. For another level of Fighter add Spirited Charge.
- Use Tumble so your small guys avoid AoOs when closing onto the fighter.
- Slippery surfaces and Level 2 Rogues (the goblin's favored class). Unless the Fighter has 5 ranks in Balance, which he probably doesn't, he will be considered flat-footed. Bad enough, plus flat-footed opponents don't get AoOs.
Lord Zardoz
Explorer
As I am sure you will be made aware, the Spiked Chain has been discussed to death on these forums because of how well it works with AoO. Some Dm's like myself dislike the Great Cleave synergy. Others dislike the combo of AoO and Improved Trip.
The only time that the Chain can become a problem in the context you describe is when the Dm likes running fights with numerous Humanoids. Many Dm's stop using humanoids around 2nd and 3rd level, preferring to run fights with fewer, but much sturdier monsters, and will argue that the Spiked Chain's limited total damage output more than balances any amount of AoO cheese.
If you wish to continue using humanoids, there are still a number of surprisingly effective things you can do to avoid suffering too much from the AoO effect.
- Spiked Chain has a range of 10 feet (15 if he gets an enlarge spell). A Short bow has a range of 60 feet. Humanoids only get one attack anyway. You do not lose much by using bows and thrown weapons.
- Use your own reach weapons: Halberds, Long Spears, and the like are not that hard for Orcs to get their hands on. You can use the range to avoid the AoO.
- Disarm and Sunder: An opponent with a 2 handed Dire Flail and Improved Disarm stands a decent chance of taking his chain away from him.
- Tank Grapple: An opponent with a solid amount of Hp can eat a hit and go for a grapple. If you do manage a grapple, the opponent cannot use the Spiked Chain.
- Other Monsters: Consider chaning up the tactics and going away from humanoids for a while. Manticore's are pretty nasty with the spike volleys. Trolls have that whole regenerating thing going for them. Ogres and Giants can negate reach and lay in a savage beating. And if you can get some 5 HD creatures with the Fiendish Template, the DR of 5/magic is pretty nice against a spiked chain that lacks enchantment.
In my own game, I house ruled the spiked chain out mostly because I knew it would make it difficult to run the kind of game I liked to run if any player decided to go for the Spiked chain cheese. The only reason I really dislike the spiked chain is that it is the only weapon that threatens at 5 and 10 feet at the same time. I tend to distrust any sort of build that depends on single specific bit of equipment to work. Since you already let the player into the game, I do not advise trying to remove the weapon from the game.
END COMMUNICATION
The only time that the Chain can become a problem in the context you describe is when the Dm likes running fights with numerous Humanoids. Many Dm's stop using humanoids around 2nd and 3rd level, preferring to run fights with fewer, but much sturdier monsters, and will argue that the Spiked Chain's limited total damage output more than balances any amount of AoO cheese.
If you wish to continue using humanoids, there are still a number of surprisingly effective things you can do to avoid suffering too much from the AoO effect.
- Spiked Chain has a range of 10 feet (15 if he gets an enlarge spell). A Short bow has a range of 60 feet. Humanoids only get one attack anyway. You do not lose much by using bows and thrown weapons.
- Use your own reach weapons: Halberds, Long Spears, and the like are not that hard for Orcs to get their hands on. You can use the range to avoid the AoO.
- Disarm and Sunder: An opponent with a 2 handed Dire Flail and Improved Disarm stands a decent chance of taking his chain away from him.
- Tank Grapple: An opponent with a solid amount of Hp can eat a hit and go for a grapple. If you do manage a grapple, the opponent cannot use the Spiked Chain.
- Other Monsters: Consider chaning up the tactics and going away from humanoids for a while. Manticore's are pretty nasty with the spike volleys. Trolls have that whole regenerating thing going for them. Ogres and Giants can negate reach and lay in a savage beating. And if you can get some 5 HD creatures with the Fiendish Template, the DR of 5/magic is pretty nice against a spiked chain that lacks enchantment.
In my own game, I house ruled the spiked chain out mostly because I knew it would make it difficult to run the kind of game I liked to run if any player decided to go for the Spiked chain cheese. The only reason I really dislike the spiked chain is that it is the only weapon that threatens at 5 and 10 feet at the same time. I tend to distrust any sort of build that depends on single specific bit of equipment to work. Since you already let the player into the game, I do not advise trying to remove the weapon from the game.
END COMMUNICATION
Similar Threads
D&D 3E/3.5
Homebrew Content
