Spiked Chains: Pure cheese or sometimes OK?

[pawsplay]

The big offender in that department, and the worst-balanced exotic, IMHO, is the goliath greathammer. Goliaths can wield Large weapons, so you have an ECL 2 character wielding a 3d6 damage weapon that does x4 on a crit... that's about 42 points of damage average.

 

[iwatt]

If there were ways for feats and/or skills to mitigate the effects of being prone, then it wouldn't be so bad. But last I checked, the most generous thing they've offered so far is to allow a DC 35 check to allow standing up as a free action--and I don't even think that prevents the attack of opportunity.

If you're willing to look outside of WoTC, there are various systems that will help out here.

1) Blood and Fists adds a new use for balance. You can resist trip attempts with a skill check. True20 does this as well (with an acrobatics check)

2) Iron heroes has a new AoO system (much simpler than D&Ds BTW), and standing up doesn't provoke AoOs

3) Iron Heroes also has as simple DC 20 Jump check to get up from prone as a free action. DC 35 kip up was something I always found ludicrous. It's DC 25 to go through someone's space? Youy use tumble insead of jump. Bleh. Iron Heroes does it better.

 

[MarkB]

It's not so much the spiked chain that's annoying as it is the rules for tripping, and most of all how huge a hosejob the prone condition is. If you stand up, you provoke. If you crawl out of your square, you provoke. If you stay prone, you take some pretty heavy penalties. If there were ways for feats and/or skills to mitigate the effects of being prone, then it wouldn't be so bad. But last I checked, the most generous thing they've offered so far is to allow a DC 35 check to allow standing up as a free action--and I don't even think that prevents the attack of opportunity.

PHB II offers a few more solutions. The stand spell (Duskblade 1, Sor/Wiz 1) is an immediate-action spell which effectively teleports the subject from prone to standing position.

One of the expanded uses of the Balance skill you gain by taking the Combat Acrobat feat is the ability to make a DC 20 Balance check to remain standing after being tripped.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't think its necessarily too bad. I also don't think removing its 10' reach would make it useless, either (just how is one supposed to use it in this manner, anyways?)

A typical RW weighted chain/manriki-gusari may be as much as 25' or so in overall length- most of it either slack or wrapped around some part of the user's body as an anchor/leveredge. The business end is spun rapidly- if the weapon is not being used to entangle disarm or trip, the weight must be moving fast to do real damage because its not very massive. For that matter, neither is the chain itself- its usually a pretty slender chain.

For the most part- those I have seen who are proficient in the weapon keep that tip moving at all times, much like Peter Woodward illustrated flail and axe users would do. They'll play out as much as 15' while doing so, whirling it horizontally overhead, at an angle, cris-crossing, or even letting it strike the ground (with a resounding whack-whack-whack) as the chain is spun vertically.

As a lark, I once took a 5' chain and a small fishing weight and swung it at some boards...messed them up pretty well.

Up until the 1960's, the chain was a popular street tough/gang weapon. This, however, was not the same as the manriki-gusari- it was a 5-8' length of heavy chain (like you'd use to secure a door) held with both ends in the wielder's grip- injuries were similar to what you'd expect from a medieval flail or morningstar (without the piercing from spikes): lots and lots of broken bones. Proficient wielders could release one end mid-swing to hit a target who thought he was at a safe distance, or let it wrap around their fist and forearm to use like brass knuckles in close quarters. It could also be used to trip or disarm, but few people did such- gang members swinging this kind of chain were more interested in hurting you than finesse moves.

 

[Tetsubo]

The big offender in that department, and the worst-balanced exotic, IMHO, is the goliath greathammer. Goliaths can wield Large weapons, so you have an ECL 2 character wielding a 3d6 damage weapon that does x4 on a crit... that's about 42 points of damage average.

This requires you to be of a specific race (one w/ the Powerful Build ability) and take an EWP in Greathammer. Which does one thing and one thing only: smashes things.

No reach, no tripping, no disarming, no use underwater (a Spiked Chain can be used underwater because it is Piercing) and it can't be Finessed. Seems pretty darn balanced to me. Big guy, big hammer, big damage.

 

[pawsplay]

This requires you to be of a specific race (one w/ the Powerful Build ability) and take an EWP in Greathammer. Which does one thing and one thing only: smashes things.

No reach, no tripping, no disarming, no use underwater (a Spiked Chain can be used underwater because it is Piercing) and it can't be Finessed. Seems pretty darn balanced to me. Big guy, big hammer, big damage.

The lack of versatility in no way changes the fact that we are talking about a 2nd level character taking down an ogre in one blow. There is also nothing preventing a said character from carrying a cold iron morningstar and a glaive as backup weapons.

And a goliath fighter could be proficient with both the greathammer and the spiked chain at 1st level, and carry both. At 2nd level he can take Quick Draw and use either one every round.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

what i ment to say so many posts ago is that the spiked chain *should* be ivys whip sword. Lets face it. The guy who drew the spiked chain messed up more then the guy who stated it. come on people. Use your imagination. Dont like it? change the way it looks in your head. You can play a game dirived almost intirely on numbers and imagination, but you can rethink how a spiked chain looks and acts.

 

[mattcolville]

I'm putting together a badass bounty hunter (ranger/bloodhound) to track down some fugitive characters in my campaign. I'm currently thinking of having him be a Litorian (think the cat equivalent of a gnoll). For no reason I can really justify, I've got a vision of him using a spiked chain to trip and lash out at his targets, mostly to emphasize how exotic this NPC is in comparison to the all-human fugitives (who come from a very traditional part of my campaign world).

There's a lot of smack talk about the spiked chain, especially as it's part of a whole slew of wacky 3E double-weapons.

Is it so bad as to be beyond redemption, or can it be used, in moderation, and still be kind of fun? Is it a pain in the kaboose to use in combat?

My attitude is this; a named bad guy who specializes in Spiked Chain is cool. Makes him different.

An entire encounter were everyone's using Spiked Chain because the GM has discovered its cheese is...well dumb. Spiked Chain has very little place in my medieval campaign setting. I prefer swordy, axey, bowy things.

 

[Felon]

Of course, one thing that should balance trip attempts is the possibility of being tripped in return if you fail (or having to let go of your tripping weapn). However, I've seen more groups than not forget that consequence exists.

 

[pawsplay]

I think I just hit upon a new flavor of spiked chain cheese. Prone fighting means never having to say "I let go."