Spiked Chains: Pure cheese or sometimes OK?

[pawsplay]

How do you figure? The goliath greathammer's damage is only one step better than the nearest equivelent weapon, the scythe. Acually, it's less than a full step; 1d8 upgrading to 2d6 gives an average increase of 2.5 points, whereas the goliath greathammer's (1d12) average damage is only 1.5 points higher than the scythe's (2d4).

Most damage upgrades are 1 point. Ex: longsword to bastard sword, 1d8 to 1d10. I am not talking about a size increase. I am talking about a die increase. All going from a longsword to a bastard sword gets you is an average of +1 damage.

Comparing the greathammer to the scythe, it gets a better than average damage increase. Comparing it to a greataxe, it gets a crit increase. As such it would be just a slightly tough exotic (edging out bastard sword in terms of the upgrade you get), but the size increase magnifies it. The greathammer enjoys a nice rounding advantage, twice (1.5 from 2d4 to 1d12, as an upgrade from the scythe, then from 1d12 to 3d6 as a large weapon, an increase of 4 points, as opposed to 3.5, such as a longsword going from 1d10 to 2d8). As a result, the final weapon outperforms most of the things you would compare it to. A large Scythe, for instance, does 2d6, a gain of only 2 points.

It would appear to me that a die type not normally assigned a x4 was used without a careful consideration of the consequences.

Also, why would a hammer have a x4 multiplier?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

then just use the dire flail picture. phb pictures are alittle weak.

I admit the dire flail pictured in the phb is strange. Im sure thiers a way to change it slightly so its two ended weapon and so you dont hit yourself.

*edit* what if the staff end was much longer. That way you have enuff room for the spiked balls too swing and not hit yourself.

 

[pawsplay]

what’s wrong with a dire flail? don’t you just use it like a staff using a standard forward twirl. The spiked ball wouldn’t hit yourself in the head, like everyone things. its just like how you flurry a staff.

Not at all. A quarterstaves ends counterbalance each other, whereas a dire flail's would disequilibriate each other. Ever shaken a clotheline? The resonance would cause it to become completely unstable.

You also can't spin it in a forward arc, because one head would have to pass under your arm while the other went over your shoulder, beheading you. If you spun it to one side, you would have a very limited attack, and it would be hard to even turn due to gyroscopic effects. As soon as one end moved, the other would resonate in the opposite direction, hitting you in the back or the back of the head.

If you want a demonstration of the basic problem, take a jump rope, tie something heavy to each end, and try to knock something over with it.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

eh i give up the dire flail except the picture of one works, but its not a dubble weapon, but a scimitar and spiked chain seem to work fin. i still think a dire flail with a really really long staff might work though, but the current pictures in the phb dont.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

what if the staff end was much longer. That way you have enuff room for the spiked balls too swing and not hit yourself.

Once again, referring to the 3 sectional staff:

The motion capture show pointed out that a warrior thus armed can reach targets in a circle 40' in diameter when gripping the weapon at one end...and STILL the striking tip and center section whipped back at the wielder to some extent. The weapon has a loss of control at the moment of and just after a successful strike.

That would only be exacerbated by having the mass further concentrated at the ends of the weapon, as in the case of an extra-long dire flail.

 

[Staffan]

Most damage upgrades are 1 point.

But one point becomes increasingly less useful the bigger the damage you're talking about. That's why large weapons usually get bigger increases.

For example, for one-handed weapons you can compare the longsword to the scimitar. One is 1d8/19-20, the other is 1d6/18-20. One point of damage in return for a threat range increase.

But when you move up to large weapons, you instead compare the greatsword to the falchion. That gives you 2d6/19-20 vs 2d4/18-20. Since the base damage is greater, you there trade 2 points of average damage for the crit multiplier.

Comparing it to a greataxe, it gets a crit increase. As such it would be just a slightly tough exotic (edging out bastard sword in terms of the upgrade you get),

Increasing the crit multiplier or threat range is a pretty standard way of making a weapon exotic. Compare the longsword to the elven thinblade.

but the size increase magnifies it.

Note that as you increase in size, weapon damage increases at an accellerated pace. The progression from the Improved Natural Attack feat is: "1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6." And the standard size increase for 1d12 is 3d6.

The greathammer enjoys a nice rounding advantage, twice (1.5 from 2d4 to 1d12, as an upgrade from the scythe, then from 1d12 to 3d6 as a large weapon, an increase of 4 points, as opposed to 3.5, such as a longsword going from 1d10 to 2d8). As a result, the final weapon outperforms most of the things you would compare it to. A large Scythe, for instance, does 2d6, a gain of only 2 points.

And if you then give it an additional damage upgrade on account of being exotic, you reach 3d6.

 

[Klaus]

Re: Dire Flail.

A more common portrayal of a heavy flail is just a length of wood with a hinged head, as I depicted here:

http://www.enworld.org/Pozas/Pictures/Classes/cleric.jpg

Is it so hard to picture a meapon with one hinged head on each end?

 

[Tetsubo]

Re: Dire Flail.

A more common portrayal of a heavy flail is just a length of wood with a hinged head, as I depicted here:

http://www.enworld.org/Pozas/Pictures/Classes/cleric.jpg

Is it so hard to picture a meapon with one hinged head on each end?

There is a reason that no one in the real world ever invented a dire (double ended) flail: it wouldn't work. Even if you just have a simple hing you still have two weights moving in opposition to each other. You wouldn't gain anything from using a dire flail and would suffer a much greater control problem. So what is the point?

As for a two-bladed sword... I expand the shaft to about 4', shorten the blades to about short sword size and call it a Bladed Staff.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Its a balanced weapon thats worth a feat, and helps out primarily fighting classes (you know, the bottom rung of the power curve). To use it well requires MAD (str to trip, dex for combat reflexes, int for expertise, and you might want Con) and a TON of feats. Its a crappy weapon against basically anything except bipeds.

Anyone with a problem with the spiked chain is a moron. I'd imagine they let the chain user trip someone attempting to stand as well...

 

[FireLance]

Anyone with a problem with the spiked chain is a moron.

You know, I completely disagree with anyone who dislikes the spiked chain, but I will defend (with a spiked chain, if necessary ) their right to dislike it.