Splatbooks to Beware of?

[Liquidsabre]

Oh I know. But I've had a proposed PC cleric as the DM who used Divine Metamagic to pull of two Instantly-Quickened spells per day on demand, at 3rd-level.

Whoa how is it possible for a 3rd level Cleric to be able to turn/rebuke 10/day? I take it they'd be human with a Domain (?) that gives them the extra turning feat, (1st) extra turning, (1st) quicken spell, (3rd) divine metamagic? Either that or have a Cleric 3 with a 22 Cha and 1 extra turning feat.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Whoa how is it possible for a 3rd level Cleric to be able to turn/rebuke 10/day? I take it they'd be human with a Domain (?) that gives them the extra turning feat, (1st) extra turning, (1st) quicken spell, (3rd) divine metamagic? Either that or have a Cleric 3 with a 22 Cha and 1 extra turning feat.

3 + 6 Charisma + 3 Extra Turning = 12

 

[Mouseferatu]

Oh I know. But I've had a proposed PC cleric as the DM who used Divine Metamagic to pull of two Instantly-Quickened spells per day on demand, at 3rd-level. This is the equivalent of a level 10 incantatrix's Instant Metamagic 2/day ability. Also, the feat text doesn't state that it can only be used for cleric spells, so before I said "no" the player of an incantatrix (with high charisma) in one of my other games decided that the incantatrix would hold off on taking another level in incantatrix to take a level in cleric so that she could have the feat. That's when I said no.

Well, the rules may not specify that they have to be cleric spells, but I know that I'd certainly rule, as DM, that they had to be. Seems very much in line with the apparent intent of the feat.

And given that using it to Quicken a spell requires five turning attempts, as well as multiple feats (Divine Metamagic, Quicken Spell, and probably Extra Turning), I frankly don't think that freely Quickening two spells a day is broken.

 

[brehobit]

The Fatespinner from Complete Arcane is pretty broken, at least once per day.

Did I miss something? What makes a Fatspinner broken? I felt everything was too weak....

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, the rules may not specify that they have to be cleric spells, but I know that I'd certainly rule, as DM, that they had to be. Seems very much in line with the apparent intent of the feat.

And given that using it to Quicken a spell requires five turning attempts, as well as multiple feats (Divine Metamagic, Quicken Spell, and probably Extra Turning), I frankly don't think that freely Quickening two spells a day is broken.

Compare the number of feats required and the effect to Sudden Quicken

It gets even worse with Persistent Spell. I shudder to think of a cleric with Persistent Righteous Might and Divine Power on every day (doable with one Extra Turning feat by the time you have those spells)

But hey, guess everyone's game has a different balance level.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Compare the number of feats required and the effect to Sudden Quicken

Well, yeah. Sudden Quicken is a much better deal. But then, I don't usually allow the Sudden Metamagics and the standard Metamagics in the same campaign. I prefer to think of them as either/or. Just me, though.

It gets even worse with Persistent Spell. I shudder to think of a cleric with Persistent Righteous Might and Divine Power on every day (doable with one Extra Turning feat by the time you have those spells)

But hey, guess everyone's game has a different balance level.

Oh, I wouldn't allow it. But then, I don't think this is a problem with Divine Metamagic per se. Rather, it's the sort of problem you run into when you have two books written to account for the core rules, but not for each other. Both Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are (relatively) balanced with stuff from the PHB. It's when you add them together that they break.

My solution? Simply stating that feats such as Divine Metamagic only apply to core feats, not feats introduced in other books, until/unless I approve them first.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, yeah. Sudden Quicken is a much better deal.

Really? It has 6 prerequisite feats and only gives one Quicken per day Divine Metamagic does the same thing at 1st-level for a human cleric who spends two feats and has at least 14 Charisma. And Divine Metamagic is more versatile.

Both Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are (relatively) balanced with stuff from the PHB.

Persistent Spell is generally balanced. I still don't think that Divine Metamagic is though (though YMMV). Just wondering, do you allow the Incantatrix PrC then? I haven't many people who do for a while.

 

[Thanee]

Those of you banning or changing Divine Metamagic probably aren't aware of the errata.

I am aware of it, in fact, I don't even consider this an errata, I always read it like that.

But then again, I do not ban the feat, only disallow Quicken/Persistent Spell with it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Did I miss something? What makes a Fatspinner broken? I felt everything was too weak....

Well, once per day, the Fatespinner can up one save DC by 15 points. That's as close as an automatic failure as it gets (95% failure chance pretty much guaranteed).

Say bye, bye to every BBEG, that is not immune to spells.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Prism]

Persistent Spell is generally balanced. I still don't think that Divine Metamagic is though (though YMMV). Just wondering, do you allow the Incantatrix PrC then? I haven't many people who do for a while.

I think the problem with this kind of stuff is usually an imbalance within the party than anything else. An optimized Incantatrix in a standard party will often outshine and I agree that if that is the case then something is wrong. An Incantatrix in a party with a shock trooper/combat brute/leap attack frenzied berserker, a rashemi elemental summoning exalted druid and a divine metamagic focused cleric probably won't stand out at all. As long as the DM is happy to throw EL4+ encounters at the party most of the time and either drop the xp awarded or accept faster progression then it works ok. That being said, I guess most people don't play in that kind of group and therefore the strongest build often gets seen as abusive

As an aside although divine metamagic persistant seems pretty abusive, a hard undead encounter or anything with dispel magic can upset this character - most spell battles open up with a few dispel magics thrown either way in our campaign. Besides a mid level cleric without this feat (and its two pre reqs) can reproduce this effect by simply casting divine power multiple times a day anyway. So for an average of 4 encounters in a day it costs you either 4 4th level spells or 3 feats, 7 turning attempts and 1 4th level spell if you use the divine metamagic persistant spell approach