SPOILER WARNING: A thread about the Harry Potter books

[Edena_of_Neith]

Not really. She's a quicker learner than Harry, but he has more raw power. As the series progreses, the balence of power shifts decidedly towords Harry, at least in combat magic.

Hey there, Meloncov.
You are the second person to say that Harry has more raw power than Hermione. Again, I'm not understanding this. What do you mean, more raw power?

Part of this is explained later in the series, but I think part of it is that British schools tend to leave students to solve their own problems, even to the point of ignoring bullying.

I can't think of anything more dangerous, in a school of wizards, than ignoring bad behavior. Bad behavior begets bad behavior. Did they learn nothing from Voldemort?
If Rowling is drawing your analogy, my statement is irrelevant to the point, obviously.

It seems counter-intuitive, but the books say that Quiditch injuries are relatively rare (Wood says that "a couple of broken jaws" is the worst injuries at Hogwarts have gotten). Combined with HP verse healing magic being far more effective than any Muggle technology, its argualby less dangerous than, say, football.

What I meant, is the high rate of injuries of various sorts in general, at Hogwart's. Of course, students are healed at Hogwart's infirmary. But the injuries still occurred, and the students remember being injured, and being in pain. So the existence of magical healing only partially mitigates matters.
Of course, one would expect injuries in a school of magic. That's a given. An absolute given. I was merely commenting on what came to mind: if I, for example, sent my children off to Hogwart's, I do so knowing they would suffer assorted injuries. That would require a particular mindset on my part. Since Rowling draws so much allegory, it is fair to think upon the matter, I believe.

As for the detention, it really shouldn't have been that dangerous. If it hadn't been for Voldemort, nothing in the forest was likely to attack them. The centaurs dislike intruders, but not genocidally so (well, not yet) and I suspect the bit about werewolves was just a myth created to scare the students away from the forest.

(grins) I think detention at Hogwart's is generally one of those Nasty Things Avoided At All Costs (what adventurers might say about Acererak, for example. ) It ain't an afterhours Study Hall session, no sir ...

You have to rebuild the magic system from the ground up. Harry Potter wizards don't use vanacian magic, and they get spells in an order that would make game balence tough (for example, the learn how to freeze someones limb in the first book, but not how to make light until the third.)

LOL. Harry Potter characters would run D&D characters down like tanks over deer. Harry Potter could do things as a First Year you'd need to be 5th level to do in D&D, on an unlimited basis. By 5th year, he was pushing 20th level in 3E terms, with no limit on spells. Voldemort? 100th level? ...

I worked a little on a D20 Harry Potter game. We used a skill point based magic system; that is, you take rank in Transfiguration and you have to make a check to learn or cast a spell. It worked fairly well, but it made it so that no one had ranks to spare for spot and the like.

I think that if wizards and sorcerers could use unlimited spells ala Harry Potter, and with the kind of magical might Harry, Hermione, and Ron could employ was involved, it would overwhelm the game pretty quick. The Vancian system just can't handle it.
What to do? I don't know, frankly. The Harry Potter setting is dominated by wizards. I guess the D&D setting would be, too. For fighters and rogues to compete, they would have to take wizard levels and go into PrCs. How else could they even begin to compete?
Still, it's intriguing. What if, it could be done? What would a Harry Potter style D&D setting be like, if we could manufacture one? Would it be Netheril all over again? Imaskari? The Suel Imperium (Voldemort would have loved that ...) ? Or a hybrid system, like Waterdeep, Cormyr, Thay, or the drow cities, or the Great Kingdom of Aerdi? Hmmm ... (muses)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(snip)

Just as teh stories are not about the magic, per se, it is important to remember that there's more to being a wizard than magical skill. Hermione might be superior in a technical sense, Harry has her beat on some crucial points of character, in terms of active, adventuring wizardry. Hermione would not make a better auror than Harry.

Can you go in-depth here? What makes Harry stronger than Hermione? I asked this above, and ask again. I just wish to hear what you have to say here. Please.

You cannot tell two people to sit down and deal with their problems unless they desire to do so. There is very little evidence that either Snape or Potter desire a good working relationship. It is far more satisfying to each of them to vilify the other. Until that changes, there will be no accord.

I realize the story might be less interesting if Snape and Harry made up.
But I think it reflects badly on them both that they refuse to do so. Wielding great power means shouldering great responsibility, to use the old clique. So, it's about time Harry and Snape started shouldering said responsibility, and cut it with the immaturity (ala, 5 points from both Slytherin and Griffindor Houses, each day, every day, until you two decide to GROW UP. We've got a Voldemort problem to deal with, or didn't you get the memo? )

The risk inherent at Hogwarts seems to be readily matched by the healing and recovery magics available. There is a comic bookishness about the universe - while the characters fear physical harm, evidence suggests that it is difficult to die from simple physical trauma, and magic is rarely directly deadly. It seems there's only one spell designed to kill people outright...

Well ok, we've got a Suspension of Disbelief here. And obviously, a school of magic is going to be dangerous. Again, though, since Rowling is dealing so heavily in allegory I thought it worth mentioning. After all, children remember being hurt and are traumatized by such memories, even if they are healed from those injuries.
It's just a musing on my part. Would I send my children to Hogwart's, if I was a parent and I lived in that hypothetical world? Good question. I wouldn't want my children injured over and over, yet if I do not send them I deny them their heritage, and Voldemort kills them maybe. Yet I don't want my children damaged again and again. Not an easy choice for me to make ...

 

[Storm Raven]

I don't understand. What do you mean when you say: Harry has more raw power. What do you mean back that? What do you mean by raw power? (confused look)

He's a "stronger wizard". Many of the things Harry does, he can simply do because he has a natural talent for it. Look at the number of instances in which Harry picks something or other up and is able to use it right away, and do so well enough to impress veteran wizards.

I merely wish to comment that I would prefer to make my own choice concerning which House I was put into. I don't believe that Sorting Hat should be determining - for the rest of their lives - which way children will go. It hasn't got that right.
If I was put at Hogwart's (theoretically) back when I was 11, and the Sorting Hat put me in Slytherin, I'd leave the school. If forced to remain, I'd refuse to work, causing my forced expulsion. That Hat wouldn't force me to stay around the likes of the Slytherins when I didn't want to be around them. (That goes for any of the other Houses, too, where appropriate.)

The Hat doesn't pick which House you go into. The Hat evaluates you and decides which House you best fit. It wouldn't put you, for example, in Slytherin, because you clearly don't have the A-type power-at-all-costs personality that seems to characterize Slytherin. You'd be sorted into a different House, one that presumably fit your personality.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The wizarding world has an odd sense of danger - there's certainly been a sense that some parents feel Hogwart's may be too dangerous - in fact at one point the Ministry of Magic tries to de-fang the Defense against the Dark Arts classes and there is discussion of closing the school multiple times. Things are more dangerous there right now because of Voldemort, of course. Of course, if you want to really learn how to use magic, doing it in a totally safe environment will probably not be sufficient.

As to the Hermione-Harry power issue, Hermione seems to be more book-learned, but Harry seems to have the greater natural talent. Since you haven't read all the books I don't know what I can tell you without spoilers. Harry casts several spells that most other kids just plain can't do. He's especially good with the Defense Agaisnt the Dark Arts spells.

In regards to the Snape-Harry conflict, Snape can't afford to look chummy with Potter. As you get to the end of Half-Blood Prince, you'll see why. Snape is playing a very dangerous, high stakes game, and it would likely be blown by getting chummy with Harry.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Consider that I've read books 1 through 5 (the Order of the Phoenix), and am working on book 6. Don't spoil The Half Blood Prince for me yet, but otherwise I'm willing to discuss the earlier books.

Ok, I am going to courteously disagree again, but it seems to me that Hermione has the greater magical talent and greater magical strength (yeah I know: Edena, bite your tongue! )
When Hermione picks up books, she is the faster one to grasp the knowledge therein.
When Hermione puts what she read into action, she is the faster and better to achieve results (a point that drove Snape nuts, I seem to remember.)

This could be interpreted to mean, simply, that Hermione is brighter than Harry. She's smarter. Simple as that.
It could also mean she has more magical aptitude (akin to real world mechanical aptitude, or mathematical aptitude, or reading aptitude, etc.) than Harry Potter does.
It could mean both of these things.

In addition, Hermione works harder than Harry, indicating a more serious attitude towards learning and understanding (Harry's attitude towards loyalty to his friends, loyalty to his principals and values, and his attitude towards Voldemort are, of course, extremely serious and more so than Hermione's.)
While Harry, and Ronald Weasley in especial, are dreaming about Quidditch, Hermione is studying. While Harry is playing hangman in class (a REAL BAD idea at Hogwart's, in my opinion!!) Hermione is studying. While Harry is daydreaming, Hermione is studying (and listening.) While Harry is bored, Hermione is studying (and interested.)
Classically, who becomes great wizards? Those who have it all handed to them on a silver platter, or those who fight for it? (Harry fights very hard indeed, but it is for Hogwart's and his friends he fights, not to become a great wizard.)

In fact, I am beginning to wonder if Harry Potter is supposed to become a great wizard at all, or if Rowling was fooling us from the start.
Perhaps instead she meant him to be a great hero ... and a great *friend* and a great *person* ... but not so great a wizard after all. Voldemort is, indeed, a great wizard, but that is no great thing. Rather, it is a terrible thing.

Hmmm.

Then again, Harry shows that experience - hands on training - is a good way for a wizard to become a wizard. He is very bold in taking on such hands on training, from his willingness to take on Quirrel/Snape to his willingness to form and train the D.A.
Yet Hermione was there with him, every step of the way (and Ronald Weasley, too.) Perhaps Hermione is not as bold (she wasn't as eager to crash the Ministry of Magic) but she has been there every time.
And Hermione has stood against her foes in toe to toe combat with all the courage (but not the sheer ferocity, necessarily) of Harry.
So if Harry has Hermione beat on hands on experience, it is by not that much ...

That leaves the final and most important thing, and that is motivation.
In this, Harry has Hermione beaten hands down. Harry has the raw drive, the burning fire, the tempermental and explosive need, to become a great wizard.
Or does he? Because he fluctuates, vacillates, back and forth. First he is driven all but to the point of madness, obsessed to the elimination of all else, then ... he is dreaming about Quidditch. Or busy playing hangman. Then he is back to the all important drive to learn. Back and forth, back and forth.
Meanwhile, Hermione is steady in her dedication.

(muses) I must wonder who, between Harry and Hermione, would have a better chance at passing the Dragonlance Test (the Test of the Towers of High Sorcery) ?

I know it's supposedly a tight race, but I think the Great Wizard title will go to Hermione.
The Great Friend and Noble Person title will go to Harry.

 

[Meloncov]

Hey there, Meloncov.
You are the second person to say that Harry has more raw power than Hermione. Again, I'm not understanding this. What do you mean, more raw power?

For example, he can cast a far more powerful patronus. The spells Harry has down he does really, really well. Hermione, however, is competent in far more spells, so it comes down to versatility versus power.

I can't think of anything more dangerous, in a school of wizards, than ignoring bad behavior. Bad behavior begets bad behavior. Did they learn nothing from Voldemort?

It also develops independence and self reliance, to things that Hogwarts tends to focus on.

LOL. Harry Potter characters would run D&D characters down like tanks over deer. Harry Potter could do things as a First Year you'd need to be 5th level to do in D&D, on an unlimited basis. By 5th year, he was pushing 20th level in 3E terms, with no limit on spells. Voldemort? 100th level? ...

HP verse wizards have more spells than D&D verse wizards, but they have nothing on par with Earthquake spell for pure destruction, they cannot ressurect people, all of their spells can be dodged, and their divination magic is unreliable at best. I think high level D&D charecters have an advantage.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ok, I am going to courteously disagree again, but it seems to me that Hermione has the greater magical talent and greater magical strength (yeah I know: Edena, bite your tongue! )
When Hermione picks up books, she is the faster one to grasp the knowledge therein.
When Hermione puts what she read into action, she is the faster and better to achieve results (a point that drove Snape nuts, I seem to remember.)

She can put her learning to use, but Harry is better at things like curses, countercharms, and so on. Harry is much better at dueling than Hermione. He is better at broom riding. His skill at the various "auror" abilities clearly exceeds hers. If one of the group decides to try their hand at being an animagus, I'd put my money on Harry succeeding. And so on.

You really need to read Books 2-4 to get a handle on Harrys array of talents (not that Hermione doesn't have some too, but it is clear that Harry is just more naturally skilled than she is).

 

[Umbran]

Can you go in-depth here? What makes Harry stronger than Hermione? I asked this above, and ask again. I just wish to hear what you have to say here. Please.

Note carefully that I didn't say Harry is "stronger", in a magical (or any other) sense. I said he had her beat on crucial points of character in terms of active, adventuring wizardry.

In short - Harry is more proactive, and takes far more and greater risks, than Hermione. Given her druthers, Hermione would sit and do her studying, work in the library, and become an excellent technical wizard, but would never do much of anything. Harry is headstrong, and largely incapable of keeping himself out of trouble. So, while he's got less technical knowledge, he ends up with a lot more in terms of practical application.

But I think it reflects badly on them both that they refuse to do so. Wielding great power means shouldering great responsibility, to use the old clique.

To quote Pete from The Muppets Take Manhattan - "Peoples is peoples."

And, as for cutting out the immaturity - let us note that Harry is immature - as in, he's only a kid! If he was mature, he'd not be someone the target audience would identify with. Not only would he be less interesting, he'd not be very believeable.

As for Snape... we don't get a good look inot his head. I would not be too surprised if there's a lot more to his behavior than meets the eye.

After all, children remember being hurt and are traumatized by such memories, even if they are healed from those injuries.

Kids at Hogwarts seem to dodge the emotional trauma that comes from most simple physical damage. It's the emotional stuff that matters - falling off the broom is far less an issue than having Malfoy tease you, I guess. It's something that marks the Potter universe (and most fictional universes where "adventure" is a major element) as different from our own.

Mind you, it gets to everyone eventually - see Mad Eye Moody as an example of a wizard who ends up slightly cracked by the trauma. Most of them, like the Weasley family, seem to manage just fine.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

That way lies madness - the separation of Muggle and Wizard in the Potter universe is fine for YA fiction, but it quickly falls apart under scrutiny, and so do all elements of muggle-wizard world interactions. It ain't pretty

And this is proof positive that JK isn't a Great writer. If your going to set your fantasy in the modern age you can't simply ignore modern technology, and everything else about the modern world that you find inconvienient, and still be Great. I'd like to see someone call a modern dectective story wrtiter who ignores ballistics and forensics in his stories be caller a Great writer. Or even get published. But HP is magic, and everyone knows that magic can do anything!

 

[Victim]

I dunno, it takes Harry far longer to learn summoning than Hermione. She seemed to learn the Patronicus okay, even if it's not as powerful as Harry's. She doesn't have his vulnerability to a dementor's aura anyway, so she can probably get away with a weaker shield too.

I'd say the difference is mostly in the ability to apply that training and skill in the middle of dangerous situations. A decent countercurse NOW is better than the perfect one half a second too late. Basically, Hermione is good at magic, and Harry is good at winning (with magic).