Claude Raines
First Post
It's in the appendicies to RotK. He is the first and only dwarf allowed to pass into the west, due mainly to his friendship with Legolas.Brown Jenkin said:
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[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread
- Thread starter John Crichton
- Start date
John Crichton
First Post
I said the same thing to a friend right after the movie about the fades. It was almost like he was trying to trick the audience. Slow wipes or quicker fades may have worked better, I'm not sure.Rugger said:
Considering I don't remember the books at all (except for a few of the names) I stayed with Return of the King pretty well. I could tell there were a few things missing but the movie was already 3 1/2 hours long. We'll get the Extended with an extra hour tacked on for sure.
Things I want to see (keep in mind I am not referencing the books in any way as I don't remember them):
- An explaination about Denethor and a little more build up. The madness worked but I didn't understand fully why given the film's explaination of his character. There was enough to have it not take away from the experience but I feel there should be a little more there.
- I want to see Eowyn and Eomer hook up onscreen. Seemed important after all they went through individually and they were together at the wedding.
- More stuff with the city-o-the dead. It was a tad quick. Heck, throw about 20 more minutes of Aragorn in there. I guess from reading this thread that there is enough material from the book to plug in there to round things out for him.
As for things like some folks not understanding why Frodo left, I would actually like to keep that scene as is and not add an in-movie explaination. I got it right off the bat and felt the drain on Frodo simply by his actions in the epilogue to that point. He would never be the same and therefore had to leave the world behind. He had basically died but a little part of him lived on, just enough to say his goodbyes.
I'll be seeing this again a few times over the holidays and will watch my EE DVDs heavily. I plan on reading the books again, which would basically be for the first time, after the RotK EE is released. I'm interested to see what I think of them. I have liked every novel that a movie has been based on better than the film with the exception of Fight Club. We shall see.
RenoOfTheTurks
First Post
Interesting that you liked Pippin's song to Denethor. In the theater I was in, there were audible groans and laughs during this part. I thought it was terrible as a soundtrack for the charge, because the charge was set up so poorly. Denethor's eating was disgusting, and failed in its attempted cinematic use. In fact the way Denethor was portrayed, a lot of depth was lost from his relationship to Faramir and it seemed in the movie as if Faramir was throwing away a lot of good soldiers for nothing. I hated the charge toward Osgiliath. I don't remember cussing Faramir out in the book like I wanted to during the movie.
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
I saw this at the midnight showing...and again Wednesday afternoon. I really have no words...it was amazing. Yes, there were problems, but for me the good far outweighed the bad. I usually analyze movies...but I just can't with this one. The Cracks of Doom were just as I imagined...as was the Ride of the Rohirrim...those alone just have me at a loss for words.
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
Razing of the Shire
I loved the movie! I particularly enjoyed seeing the trilogy to have a better feel for the parts of the book that I had a difficult time imagining.
However, I was very upset that they didn't include the razing of the Shire. It's the chapter of the series where the four hobbits become heroes for their own people. The ending in RotK had them drinking together in a pub, while the whole rest of their folk had no idea whatsoever of the important things they had done.
Oh yeah, it would also have been nice of them to show Denethor's palantir to explain his otherwise-mystifying madness.
Of the three movies, I felt this one was the weakest: for people who hadn't read the books, there was too much that was left unexplained, while those who have read the books were disappointed by the departures from canon. (I found most differences to be acceptable, given that they were likely done in the hopes of making a better cinematographic experience.)
-blarg
I loved the movie! I particularly enjoyed seeing the trilogy to have a better feel for the parts of the book that I had a difficult time imagining.
However, I was very upset that they didn't include the razing of the Shire. It's the chapter of the series where the four hobbits become heroes for their own people. The ending in RotK had them drinking together in a pub, while the whole rest of their folk had no idea whatsoever of the important things they had done.
Oh yeah, it would also have been nice of them to show Denethor's palantir to explain his otherwise-mystifying madness.
Of the three movies, I felt this one was the weakest: for people who hadn't read the books, there was too much that was left unexplained, while those who have read the books were disappointed by the departures from canon. (I found most differences to be acceptable, given that they were likely done in the hopes of making a better cinematographic experience.)
-blarg
Desdichado
Hero
Weird. Nothing like that in my theatre; I thought the singing was quite a poignant backdrop to the utter waste and tragedy of the moment.RenoOfTheTurks said:Interesting that you liked Pippin's song to Denethor. In the theater I was in, there were audible groans and laughs during this part. I thought it was terrible as a soundtrack for the charge, because the charge was set up so poorly. Denethor's eating was disgusting, and failed in its attempted cinematic use. In fact the way Denethor was portrayed, a lot of depth was lost from his relationship to Faramir and it seemed in the movie as if Faramir was throwing away a lot of good soldiers for nothing. I hated the charge toward Osgiliath. I don't remember cussing Faramir out in the book like I wanted to during the movie.
Joshua Dyal said:
He says that Sauron was vanquished but his spirit endured. However in that very self same chapter you've just highlighted Gandalf says that after a defeat the shadow always takes another shape and grows again. Tolkien uses the word eye to describe where either Morgoth or Sauron has their attention at any particular moment. In Morgoths ring he talks about Morgoths eye being something that Orcs could feel when he merely turned his thought to them.
The Eye of Sauron is mentioned in the "Rings of Power" in the Silmarillion before he loses the ring.
I'm not saying its particularly clear from the book but the single fact is that if you read Tolkiens letters he makes it very clear that Sauron had a physical form. IIRC he does this in one of his more interesting letters when he discusses what the Nazgul would have tried to do if they had reached Mount Doom in time to stop the Ring falling into the fire. So although you can say its ambigious in the book to Tolkien's mind Sauron had a physical form which is why I think I can say with some safety that PJ's belief that Sauron is merely a flaming eye is wrong.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Whoa. This is just too weird.
Celtavian and I are in total agreement.
Well, not on the notion that he knows more Tolkien than thalmin.
I'm interested in people's responses to Eowyn's face-off against the Witch-King. This was the great disappointment of the film for me. Everything else was great (the effects shots look like effects shots, but okay, they were a million times better than any effects shots I've ever seen, so I'll let that go) -- or if it wasn't, I'm assuming it will be addressed in the EE.
But I thought Eowyn's big scene was sold immeasurably short. The staging of it gave no real drama to the scene, her cutting the head off the beast happened nearly off-screen and at a distance, and her big moment was just lost.
Here's how it plays out in the book:
Theoden goes down, Eowyn's mount, Eowyn and Merry go down. Merry roots around in the ground while Eowyn stands up and tells the Witch-King she's going to keep him from Theoden. The exact words are:
"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik!"
Which is possibly the best line ever given to any character at any time in any work of human creativity. But I acknowledge that is my own idiosyncrasy.
W-K tells Eowyn if she wants to be a fool he's happy to oblige her, and says that no living man may hinder him.
Eowyn laughs.
SHE LAUGHS. In the midst of all this death and carnage, a woman laughs.
She throws off her helmet and says, "But no living man am I!" And introduces herself and her parentage in that charming way characters in Tolkien have (and I miss that, too: "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn. Here is the Sword That Was Broken and is Forged Again. Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!") and squares off.
And the W-K studies her, momentarily at a loss.
WHAT A MOMENT!
AND THEN, she falls, and it's MERRY who holds Theoden in his last moments. Then Eomer comes up finds his king dead and his sister (who he thought safely at home) apparently dead, and that's where the Rohirrim scream DEATH ("DEATH they cried with one voice loud and terrible") and make their final charge.
Okay, I accept that we couldn't have TWO charges of the Rohirrim. I'll even hope for Eomer finding the gang in the EE. But Eowyn's moment never happened.
And the movie is less than what it could have been for me.
That said, I'm seeing it again this weekend and intend to see it at least twice more after that. I'm sure. It's cinematic history. We'll tell our grandchildren about seeing these movies in the theatre for the first time.
And just think: we are (most of us, anyway) the last generation that ever grew up reading those books with no expectation of ever seeing them on the big screen. From now on, everyone who comes to these books will know that there's a movie version out there.
Celtavian and I are in total agreement.
Well, not on the notion that he knows more Tolkien than thalmin.
I'm interested in people's responses to Eowyn's face-off against the Witch-King. This was the great disappointment of the film for me. Everything else was great (the effects shots look like effects shots, but okay, they were a million times better than any effects shots I've ever seen, so I'll let that go) -- or if it wasn't, I'm assuming it will be addressed in the EE.
But I thought Eowyn's big scene was sold immeasurably short. The staging of it gave no real drama to the scene, her cutting the head off the beast happened nearly off-screen and at a distance, and her big moment was just lost.
Here's how it plays out in the book:
Theoden goes down, Eowyn's mount, Eowyn and Merry go down. Merry roots around in the ground while Eowyn stands up and tells the Witch-King she's going to keep him from Theoden. The exact words are:
"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik!"
Which is possibly the best line ever given to any character at any time in any work of human creativity. But I acknowledge that is my own idiosyncrasy.
W-K tells Eowyn if she wants to be a fool he's happy to oblige her, and says that no living man may hinder him.
Eowyn laughs.
SHE LAUGHS. In the midst of all this death and carnage, a woman laughs.
She throws off her helmet and says, "But no living man am I!" And introduces herself and her parentage in that charming way characters in Tolkien have (and I miss that, too: "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn. Here is the Sword That Was Broken and is Forged Again. Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!") and squares off.
And the W-K studies her, momentarily at a loss.
WHAT A MOMENT!
AND THEN, she falls, and it's MERRY who holds Theoden in his last moments. Then Eomer comes up finds his king dead and his sister (who he thought safely at home) apparently dead, and that's where the Rohirrim scream DEATH ("DEATH they cried with one voice loud and terrible") and make their final charge.
Okay, I accept that we couldn't have TWO charges of the Rohirrim. I'll even hope for Eomer finding the gang in the EE. But Eowyn's moment never happened.
And the movie is less than what it could have been for me.
That said, I'm seeing it again this weekend and intend to see it at least twice more after that. I'm sure. It's cinematic history. We'll tell our grandchildren about seeing these movies in the theatre for the first time.
And just think: we are (most of us, anyway) the last generation that ever grew up reading those books with no expectation of ever seeing them on the big screen. From now on, everyone who comes to these books will know that there's a movie version out there.
ControlFreak
First Post
I loved the movie. I was at the local Trilogy showing on Tuesday, and then saw it again Wednesday evening with my wife.
Anyway, here were a few of the things that bothered me:
- The Palantir at Isengard along with the lack of any confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman and the breaking of Saruman's staff.
- The relationship between Pippin and Denethor, the lack of Denethor's Palantir, and the flaming, running, jumping Denethor.
- The black fleet (I'll come back to this)
- House of Healing - but I did hear that it was all filmed (including the whole Faramir/Eowyn relationship) so we'll certainly see it in the EE, but didn't wounds seem to heal a little too fast? Certainly that was the case with Merry.
- The Mouth of Sauron and Frodo's mithril shirt - again, I heard that the role of the Mouth of Sauron was cast and filmed, so hopeful for the EE.
- I understand them leaving out the Scouring of the Shire, but I still hate that they did. They could have practically made that film IV
- At the end, Sam says, "Well, I'm back," and walks inside .. into 3 Bagshot Row!? Did Frodo sell Bag End so he'd have extra cash in Valinor?
- Pet Peeve - I don't know about you guys, but it kills a little of the immersion for me when I see Peter Jackson's kids in every movie wearing different hairstyles. They've been in the Shire, in Helm's Deep, and in Minas Tirith, and every time I see them now I sigh out loud.
Anyway .. back to the black fleet. I actually spoke to a friend about this earlier and he reminded me that it was actually only 1 page in the book, but I still think it was under-done in the movie. I'll 'splain:
The good armies are doing their best and making enough small victories to keep hope alive. The evil army is taking heavy losses but have breached the city gates. A black fleet appears on the shore and the good forces are emotionally CRUSHED! The orcs cheer as their reinforcements arrive just when they can use them. Suddenly, the banner of the Kings of Gondor comes into view at the top of the mast. Emotions are completely reversed and the tide of the battle is changed.
I don't know .. I just didn't think there was the emotion that there needed to be there.
CF
Anyway, here were a few of the things that bothered me:
- The Palantir at Isengard along with the lack of any confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman and the breaking of Saruman's staff.
- The relationship between Pippin and Denethor, the lack of Denethor's Palantir, and the flaming, running, jumping Denethor.
- The black fleet (I'll come back to this)
- House of Healing - but I did hear that it was all filmed (including the whole Faramir/Eowyn relationship) so we'll certainly see it in the EE, but didn't wounds seem to heal a little too fast? Certainly that was the case with Merry.
- The Mouth of Sauron and Frodo's mithril shirt - again, I heard that the role of the Mouth of Sauron was cast and filmed, so hopeful for the EE.
- I understand them leaving out the Scouring of the Shire, but I still hate that they did. They could have practically made that film IV
- At the end, Sam says, "Well, I'm back," and walks inside .. into 3 Bagshot Row!? Did Frodo sell Bag End so he'd have extra cash in Valinor?
- Pet Peeve - I don't know about you guys, but it kills a little of the immersion for me when I see Peter Jackson's kids in every movie wearing different hairstyles. They've been in the Shire, in Helm's Deep, and in Minas Tirith, and every time I see them now I sigh out loud.
Anyway .. back to the black fleet. I actually spoke to a friend about this earlier and he reminded me that it was actually only 1 page in the book, but I still think it was under-done in the movie. I'll 'splain:
The good armies are doing their best and making enough small victories to keep hope alive. The evil army is taking heavy losses but have breached the city gates. A black fleet appears on the shore and the good forces are emotionally CRUSHED! The orcs cheer as their reinforcements arrive just when they can use them. Suddenly, the banner of the Kings of Gondor comes into view at the top of the mast. Emotions are completely reversed and the tide of the battle is changed.
I don't know .. I just didn't think there was the emotion that there needed to be there.
CF
