[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

[Vocenoctum]

As for Serkis' portrayal of pre-ring Smeagol.... Well, if you look at the scene in the books, he's pretty spot-on. Smeagol comes from a long-ago time, before hobbits were as civilized and cultured and sophisticated as they are today.

My problem with it, was that his voice and mannerisms were too much Gollum already. It downplays the degeneration of Gollum if he started that close to it already. IMO ofcourse.

As for the Scouring of the Shire... I missed it. It is the single strongest portrayal of how the hobbits have grown and changed over the course of their adventures. Looking lordly as they ride into town and being glowered at by an old-timer just doesn't do the trick, IMHO.

Just seems to me that all the fighting they did to save the world, it's kind of minimized when they return to find the Shire in trouble. They returned triumphant to a place that didn't even know it was in danger. The Scouring just seems a way to get them the credit they perhaps deserve, but don't pursue. The scene of them drinking togethor caps it perfectly for me. They know what they did, and they did it so that the other hobbits never had to undergo the dangers they faced. I think for most average movie goer's, that's a better resolution than going into detail about the rescue of the Shire. But then, I liked the epic feel of the movie, and think the Shire battles would have paled in comparison to the Charge.

 

[Umbran]

...and the apparently imminent destruction of Gondor (for which he will go down in history as the ruler that lost Gondor to the Enemy).

I think that the movie makes it pretty clear that if Gondor falls, there will not actually be any more history, at least not in the sense anyone cares about. If Minas Tirith falls, Gondor falls. If Gondor falls, Sauron wins. Permanently. It isn't just the end of the everything he cares about. It really is the end of the world as anyone knows it.

Just seems to me that all the fighting they did to save the world, it's kind of minimized when they return to find the Shire in trouble. They returned triumphant to a place that didn't even know it was in danger. The Scouring just seems a way to get them the credit they perhaps deserve, but don't pursue.

I'll grant you, if what you're looking for is an action sequence, it'd be anticlimatic. But if you're looking at character development, it's more essential. The Scouring isn't a way to give them credit, but to display what their character has become after going through the events. With the haughty glances and sitting clinking mugs in the tavern, you'd almost think Merry and Pippin hadn't changed or grown much as people through the whole mess.

 

[Banshee16]

Just saw the movie last night......utterly amazing.

I don't know what my favourite part is. There are *parts* that I like better from Fellowship, but taken as a whole, I like Return of the King better.

The charge of the Mumakils, the ringwraiths mounts swooping, grabbing people, and throwing them from the heights, Frodo standing over the volcano.....the battle with Shelob....

There was so much to like. Admittedly, lots of stuff was changed. But count me in the camp that doesn't care. I think there are truths in the statement that the book, if filmed literally as it occurred, would have utterly failed.

Tolkien was brilliant....but Peter Jackson understood how to take the best elements, and the most elements, for that matter, to create the best possible movie based on the book.

It's going to be a long, long wait for the DVD release..

Banshee

 

[Taren Seeker]

All the nitpicking and kvetching aside there were only 2 things in this entire trilogy that really bothered me, as in PJ made a bad decision.

1) Legolas' shield ride. Sorry, it just totally breaks the mood for me.

2) Elrond telling Aragorn that Arwen's life is somehow linked to the Ring. Hmm, I think saving Gondor and the entire world was probably enough motivation for Aragorn to kick some ass. Adding that in seemed like cheap melodrama.

That's it. In 10+ hours of movie, TWO things that bugged me enough to pull me out of the experience of viewing. PJ made some decisions that I may not agree with, but I have to say that in only those two instances did he make a bad decision. I think that's a distinction that a lot of haters fail to make.

What a great ride. Now I can only dream of what wonders await us in the EE. Sigh, only 11 months to go.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I'll grant you, if what you're looking for is an action sequence, it'd be anticlimatic. But if you're looking at character development, it's more essential. The Scouring isn't a way to give them credit, but to display what their character has become after going through the events. With the haughty glances and sitting clinking mugs in the tavern, you'd almost think Merry and Pippin hadn't changed or grown much as people through the whole mess.

My interpretation of the scene in the tavern is quite different. I saw it as a reflection of just how much the four hobbits had changed and grown, including Merry and Pippin. In almost all other scenes from the movies in which they were in a tavern or at a celebration (including one in RotK, in Edoras IIRC), Merry and Pippin were right in the middle of the festivities. They liked being the center of attention, and the ring leaders of any mischief that was going on.

Now after having gone to war, they realize that sort of activitiy is immature. They've grown, and are content to just sit and drink with their war buddies.

I've witnessed the same sort of changes in real-life servicemen who have gone to war.

And I think the haughty glances they receive upon returning were more for their reputations before they left rather than for anything they had done upon returning. I think hobbits in the Shire were treating them the same way they did when the four left, but the four had grown during their adventure and were nothing like they were when the left. I don't think the four were or would act like conquering heroes returned from the war; they are content in their knowledge of what they did, and how they proved themselves, to themselves, and they probably could care less what the rest of the Shire's residents think about them.

Just my take/interpretation.

 

[GMVictory]

My interpretation of the scene in the tavern is quite different. I saw it as a reflection of just how much the four hobbits had changed and grown, including Merry and Pippin. In almost all other scenes from the movies in which they were in a tavern or at a celebration (including one in RotK, in Edoras IIRC), Merry and Pippin were right in the middle of the festivities. They liked being the center of attention, and the ring leaders of any mischief that was going on.

Now after having gone to war, they realize that sort of activitiy is immature. They've grown, and are content to just sit and drink with their war buddies.

I've witnessed the same sort of changes in real-life servicemen who have gone to war.

And I think the haughty glances they receive upon returning were more for their reputations before they left rather than for anything they had done upon returning. I think hobbits in the Shire were treating them the same way they did when the four left, but the four had grown during their adventure and were nothing like they were when the left. I don't think the four were or would act like conquering heroes returned from the war; they are content in their knowledge of what they did, and how they proved themselves, to themselves, and they probably could care less what the rest of the Shire's residents think about them.

Just my take/interpretation.

As a former serviceman who's been to war that scene was exactly how I felt when my buddies and I returned to the world. Life went on for the civilians with no clue what we had gone through or what had been required of us. We watched people around us evince an innocence we no longer had. Carefree and experiencing happiness that was no longer available to us. I'm not saying we were all somehow damaged in our time in theater, but we were irrevocably changed and saw the world around us differently. Only we and those of us who were there could fully empathize.

I thought that this end was better than the burning of the shire (for the movie). I liked that they had averted the future that Frodo had seen with Galadriel. They preserved their home.

 

[shilsen]

As a former serviceman who's been to war that scene was exactly how I felt when my buddies and I returned to the world. Life went on for the civilians with no clue what we had gone through or what had been required of us. We watched people around us evince an innocence we no longer had. Carefree and experiencing happiness that was no longer available to us. I'm not saying we were all somehow damaged in our time in theater, but we were irrevocably changed and saw the world around us differently. Only we and those of us who were there could fully empathize.

I thought that this end was better than the burning of the shire (for the movie). I liked that they had averted the future that Frodo had seen with Galadriel. They preserved their home.

I agree. I think that the end works better for the movie, just as the Scouring of the Shire and Sharkey's death works better for the book. In the book, Frodo fills the function of the character who returns after incredible hardship in the War but is not recognized as such, while Merry and Pippin serve as a counterpoint to him. Getting that across in the movie would have taken a lot more time and effort, so the tavern scene works fine. Different strokes for different media.

 

[shilsen]

I don't recall Gimli passing over. I recall from the books that Gimli and Legolas wander middle earth together until Gimli dies. Then Legolas like the other elves leaves for Valinor.

It's in the appendicies to RotK. He is the first and only dwarf allowed to pass into the west, due mainly to his friendship with Legolas.

Minor quibble. Gimli goes with Legolas due to their friendship. But he is allowed into the West (the appendices surmise) due to Galadriel.

"But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. But more cannot be said of this matter."

 

[Psion]

My problem with it, was that his voice and mannerisms were too much Gollum already. It downplays the degeneration of Gollum if he started that close to it already. IMO ofcourse.

I agree with that.

 

[Storm Raven]

I'll grant you, if what you're looking for is an action sequence, it'd be anticlimatic. But if you're looking at character development, it's more essential. The Scouring isn't a way to give them credit, but to display what their character has become after going through the events. With the haughty glances and sitting clinking mugs in the tavern, you'd almost think Merry and Pippin hadn't changed or grown much as people through the whole mess.

I always saw the Scouring as a vivid depiction of the fact that destroying Sauron didn't banish evil from the world, just a particular form of it. LotR is different from a lot of other fantasy epics in that it doesn't assume that once you eliminate the evil overlord the world is peace and roses.

It is also confirmation of Gandalf's statements in the beginning of FotR that the hobbits can "fence themsevles into" the Shire, but they can't "fence the world out".