[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

[Flexor the Mighty!]

5) Nazgul. I didn't get this impression from the books, but, again, seeing it onscreen made some things more "apparent" to me. The Nazgul don't really seem much of a threat - Aragorn drives them off easily in the first film, one of the fellbeasts is hit by a single arrow and flees in TTT, and the Witch King confrontation is too darn easy. His fell beast, in particular, was about as much threat as a tabby cat. I'd like (blasphemy!) PJ to have rewritten the Nazgul to make them much more formidable than they actually were.

I don't think he needed to do that at all. He should have never re-written the scene with the Nazgul when Frodo gets stabbed. That right there took a lot of impact out of the Nazgul. Strider jumps out and starts kicking thier asses? WTF? Based on that I don't know why 3-4 elves couldn't take the whole lot of them! Then the scene where a single arrow drives one off...are these things supposed to be tough? Bad writing by PJ & crew on those. The aura of fear was gone after Weathertop. Terrible scene if you want to keep the aura of fear around them.

 

[Bob Aberton]

If I recall properly, Flexor, Aragorn does pretty much the same thing in the books - and in the books, Frodo sends the Witch-King running by slashing his cloak and shouting "Elbereth!"

Aragorn is the most powerful mortal in Middle-Earth; he might even measure up favorably with Isildur. I would argue that far from diminishing the Nazgul, the Weathertop scene just goes to show how powerful Aragorn is.

And Legolas kills a Fell Beast with one arrow in The Two Towers (the book version). However, when Faramir does somewhat the same thing in the movie, apparently it's a sign of how wimpy the Nazgul are.

(On a side note, Smaug the dragon in The Hobbit was killed by one arrow; does that mean Smaug is wimpy, too?)

 

[Storminator]

6) Gimli still too much of a comedy figure, something which has bothered me through all three movies. Also, in TTT when he had a score of 2 and Legolas had 19 - how on earth did he catch up? Did Legolas just slow down to give him a chance, deciding that his 19 orcs/10 seconds hit rate was too fast to make for fair competition? Or should the two have been prtrayed as more equal all the way through, as in the books?

In the books Legolas is ahead 19 to 2, but then he runs out of arrows, and Gimli's axe work catches up.

Incidently, I think the scene in TTT where Gimli is killing and roaring out his body count is awesome. Who'd like to be the next orc to step to that?

PS

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

If I recall properly, Flexor, Aragorn does pretty much the same thing in the books - and in the books, Frodo sends the Witch-King running by slashing his cloak and shouting "Elbereth!"

Aragorn is the most powerful mortal in Middle-Earth; he might even measure up favorably with Isildur. I would argue that far from diminishing the Nazgul, the Weathertop scene just goes to show how powerful Aragorn is.

And Legolas kills a Fell Beast with one arrow in The Two Towers (the book version). However, when Faramir does somewhat the same thing in the movie, apparently it's a sign of how wimpy the Nazgul are.

(On a side note, Smaug the dragon in The Hobbit was killed by one arrow; does that mean Smaug is wimpy, too?)

I thought that Strider used torches to try and keep the Nazgul at bay, then Frodo gets stabbed and they withdraw to wait for the knife to do it's work? It's been a while since I read the Fellowship. Yes Aragorn is mighty, but I got the impression that he could just kick the out of the Nazgul from watching the movie. I got the sense of the fear they radiate more from the books I suppose.

 

[WizarDru]

Were the eagles unexpected? How else would you suggest Frodo and Sam get off the mountain? Like nobody here saw this coming? Please.

To me the first time I read the books? Yes, they were. To people who've never read the books? Yes, they were. That the characters had accpeted their own deaths doesn't mean the audience had. I didn't see the story as "Destroy the Ring.", but rather "Destroy the Ring, Save the Free Peoples and Survive if we can."

You don't agree, which is fine. But your opinion is not an absolute.

And since a moderator has already had a say, I'll just add that there's really no need to be rude. Your point can stand just fine on it's own, without lashing out.

 

[kengar]

Originally Posted by Morrus


5) Nazgul. I didn't get this impression from the books, but, again, seeing it onscreen made some things more "apparent" to me. The Nazgul don't really seem much of a threat - Aragorn drives them off easily in the first film, one of the fellbeasts is hit by a single arrow and flees in TTT, and the Witch King confrontation is too darn easy. His fell beast, in particular, was about as much threat as a tabby cat. I'd like (blasphemy!) PJ to have rewritten the Nazgul to make them much more formidable than they actually were.

In the books, at the beginning (Shire, Bree & Weathertop) the Nine were not yet at their full strength. Their power had waned with Sauron's after the One Ring was lost. The Nazguls' main weapon was fear. At Weathertop, Fire helped to keep them at bay. They disliked fire and light, being creatures of darkness.

"Strider laid his hand on his (Frodo's) shoulder. 'There is still hope,' he said. 'You are not alone. Let us take this wood that is set ready for the fire as a sign. There is little shelter or defnce here, but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness."

When Frodo put on the Ring and entered the shadow-world, the Witch King was able to see him clearly and strike him with the Morgul blade. Aragorn and the others drove them off with torches.

I agree with Bob that the scene with Faramir shooting the hell hawk was probably meant to be reminiscent of Legolas' felling the winged beast in TTT.

Lastly, as far as the films go, one of the things that isn't really obvious is the effect of the Nazguls' cries. In ROTK, you see the men of Gondor cringing and covering their ears.

"Pippin knew the shuddering cry that he had heard: it was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish of the Shire, but it was grown in power and hatred, piercing the heart with a poisonous despair."

Also:

"For yet another weapon, swifter than hunger, the Lord of the Dark Tower had: dread and despair.

The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting weapons fall from nerveless handswhile into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death."

This is one of those instances, I think, where the book does a better job than the movie. It's hard to show this kind of thing on screen.

 

[diaglo]

(On a side note, Smaug the dragon in The Hobbit was killed by one arrow; does that mean Smaug is wimpy, too?)

it was a special arrow.


and Faramir is no elf when it comes to using a bow.

 

[Kesh]

Fine, we'll play by dictionary.

Can you explain how the eagles are unexpected, artificial, improbable, or how they were introduced suddenly when they were introduced in the first film? Can you explain what part of the plot they are resolving?

Let's try this one:

Were the eagles unexpected? How else would you suggest Frodo and Sam get off the mountain? Like nobody here saw this coming? Please. Was it a sudden solution? Did Frodo and Sam not accept their fate and did not enough time pass before the eagles appeared--with Gandalf? Did not enough time pass before one could actually realize that the eagles were an obvious choice to appear to save them from their fate, not the plot itself?

(If one can't see this term is erroneous by now I'm not sure there's any hope... )

Well, give up hope.

The eagles are a DEM for the fact that they showed up at the battle for absolutely no reason given in the film. (I cannot recall if a message was ever sent to them in the books.)

In the movie, they simply show up unannounced and intervene in the fight. And solely by the grace of their presence, Sam & Frodo can be saved when they otherwise would likely have died on Mt. Doom.

If there had been even passing mention of someone sending a message to the eagles asking for help, your argument would have more weight.

 

[Kesh]

< nitpick> They rejoin their companions in Gondor, not Rivendell < /nitpick>

I agree with the rest of your post, though.

Whoops. Thanks! For some reason, I the bedchamber reminded me of the one in Rivendell, so that's what my brain stuck in there.

 

[Storm Raven]

If I recall properly, Flexor, Aragorn does pretty much the same thing in the books - and in the books, Frodo sends the Witch-King running by slashing his cloak and shouting "Elbereth!"

Actually, Aragorn's efforts in the book are pretty ineffective when confronting the Nazgul on Weathertop. They have stabbed Frodo with the Morgul blade when he shows up, and they withdraw not because they have been driven off, but because they are content to wait for the knife to work. They are convinced that Frodo will succumb in short order. Aragorn waving burning branches about is not very effective.

And Frodo's attack is noted for being completely ineffective. The Witch-King withdraws because he wants to, not because of anything Frodo or Aragorn did.

Aragorn is the most powerful mortal in Middle-Earth; he might even measure up favorably with Isildur.

He may be the most powerful mortal on earth, but he's a far cry form the powerful elf-lords. In the book Glorfindel, an immensely powerful elven warrior, is brushed aside by the nazgul as they pursue Frodo.